Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:            Hey.

Guest:              Hello.

Jessica:            Hello. What would you like a reading about?

Guest:              I will read my question. So, "Hey, Jessica. I am four months into my Christ year and have been working to stay present with patterns that are emerging around self-abandonment relating to work and my personal life. What insights can my birth chart share with me about navigating this time with care, and what changes am I being invited to explore during this time?"

Jessica:            Okay. I love talking about Saturn cycles. So we're going to pull up your chart in a minute, but your Saturn Return happened. Do you have in your mind a sense of awareness of what the major themes were that year for you?

Guest:              I don't know exactly when my Saturn Return hit me.

Jessica:            Let's change that. Let's change that right now. Okay. Hold on. I'm kicking myself that I didn't come prepared to tell you exactly when it was. Okay.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So your Saturn Return began in April of 2021, and it lasted from April of 2021 until mid-July of that year. And then it came back around for you in January of 2022.

Guest:              I think the major theme of that time was boundaries and self-abandonment.

Jessica:            Excellent. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So this is like the whole story of the Christ year, right? It's the things that came up during the Saturn Return, and then you're like, "Okay. I have to fucking deal with this." And then life goes on, and nothing is forcing you to deal with it at the 30th year, 31st year, 32nd year. And then 33 hits, and the same themes are just kind of sitting there waiting, but they have greater weight because you're now older and you know better, technically speaking. Technically speaking.

So were those same themes active—and I should say you were born November 22nd, '92, in Paterson, New Jersey, at 12:59 a.m. local time. Those same themes around boundaries and self-abandonment, were they active in the same parts of your life, around personal relationships and work? Or was it in a different context at the time?

Guest:              It was the same context. It was work. There was a work rupture in April, I think, of that year. I had been working somewhere for a few years. It was a very small business. Boundarylessness—it all kind of blew up in my face.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              And also, in my personal life, I started a new relationship around that time, and we just merged.

Jessica:            Immediately.

Guest:              So no boundaries.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Guest:              Immediately. Yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. And what genders do you date?

Guest:              Shes and theys.

Jessica:            Shes and theys. Okay. Great. And was it a they at the time or a she at the time, just so I use the right—

Guest:              They.

Jessica:            They. And work—what do you do? You don't have to be specific unless it feels helpful.

Guest:              I'm a florist.

Jessica:            Oh, nice. That's great.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And you're not self-employed at this time?

Guest:              I'm not self-employed at this time, no.

Jessica:            Okay. I feel like that's an industry where maybe a little bit of merging is not uncommon. Boundarylessness—I've heard from a lot of people I've worked with who work in that field that that happens.

Guest:              Yeah. It's very similar to restaurants or—you know, like where you're doing a lot of labor for long periods of time all together. It can feel confusing.

Jessica:            Yeah. And also, you've got a—the client is right and you have to please the client—

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            —and not show the client how much labor is involved. Yeah. It's a complicated industry in that regard. So okay. Currently, same themes are happening?

Guest:              Same themes are happening.

Jessica:            Excellent. Okay. And so are you dating somebody currently?

Guest:              I am.

Jessica:            And this is not the same person?

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              A different person.

Jessica:            Okay. And she, they?

Guest:              She.

Jessica:            And how long have you been with her?

Guest:              We have been dating for a year now.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So this is like a nice, long relationship. You live together?

Guest:              We do not.

Jessica:            Congratulations. Well played.

Guest:              Thank you.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              I learned.

Jessica:            Okay. Good. Okay. So you did learn things.

Guest:              I learned things.

Jessica:            It's just the same theme, but it's different layers of the theme.

Guest:              Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Jessica:            Excellent. Okay. Let me just slow it down. And you're a Sadge, right? So we could kind of go everywhere all at once, but let's instead—I'm going to slow it down and ask you if there's anything general or specific that you either want me to start with or that's super active for you and that you want insight around.

Guest:              I think I would love some insight around the shape that I'm taking in work right now, which is the self-abandonment and overextending.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              And I can see myself doing it really clearly, and I'm also—it almost feels like I'm outside of my body, like I'm not in control of what is happening, and I'm still just—I'm doing.

Jessica:            Yeah. And you work for a person?

Guest:              I do.

Jessica:            And is it just you and the person?

Guest:              It is not just me and the person, but it's a very small team.

Jessica:            Yeah. It feels intimate to me.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            It feels crowded, actually. It feels crowded. So is your company currently going through an expansion or a busy season?

Guest:              We just moved locations.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            That makes sense why it feels so energetically just crowded, crowded. And I'm going to have you say the name of the company that you're working for.

Guest:              I'm working for [redacted].

Jessica:            Oh my goodness. Okay. Am I seeing this correctly? It's an older white woman?

Guest:  She's in her 50s, yes.

Jessica:            I was going to say I don't think she's older, but you think she's older. She's older than you.

Guest:              Oh yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              She's older than me.

Jessica:            Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm all, she's my age, but older than you. Okay. Respect. Okay. And I'm seeing her correctly; she's a white lady?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. There's layers of what I'm looking at straight out the gate, okay? And I'm looking at this intuitively as opposed to astrologically, just for the record, in this moment. You have this desire to please her and to prove yourself to her, yes or no?

Guest:              I don't know that I want to do that for her, but it is a childhood thing that I'm doing that I do in work. I do it in work.

Jessica:            So maybe it's less that you feel that way about this person, but it's more that your behavior makes it seem like you feel this way about this person.

Guest:              Correct.

Jessica:            Okay. Let's start with that, because—and forgive me as I'm about to sound like the Capricorn that I am, but—

Guest:              I love it.

Jessica:            Okay. Good, because you're about to get it. So okay. If you treat every boss, we'll just say as an example—because it doesn't just happen with bosses. But if you treat every boss as a parent you need to please or somebody who has authority over your value that you need to prove yourself to, then whether or not you technically feel that way or technically think that way, you are co-creating that reality. And inevitably, when you give someone power to approve or not of you, they will do it, even if they didn't want to do it. And she, a little bit, wants to do it.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Am I correct about this?

Guest:              Correct.

Jessica:            Okay. She has a lot of scarcity issues. So she is interpreting your behavior different than you are interpreting your behavior. I'm going to give you a job, and this job is to, when you are in interaction with your boss—and this happens with other people, but it's a great thing to focus on. When you are in interaction with your boss, whether it's in your head—you're not actually interacting with her—or you're actually interacting with her in any regard, there's a number of things I want you to notice.

                        The first is I want you to notice when you start being driven by a sense of urgency. Do you know what I'm referring to?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            So you're tracking when you feel a sense of urgency. And when you feel a sense of energy, what I want to encourage you to do is be like, "Okay. I'm feeling it on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most. What's the number?" Okay?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            The reason why I'm encouraging you to start by tracking a sense of urgency is because that urgency comes up as the first symptom of you slipping into this pattern.

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            Yeah. So the first thing you feel is urgency. "Oh, I'm running out of time." "Oh, I need to do this." "Oh, I need to do more of this." "Oh, I need to not displease this person." "Oh, I need to prove x, y, and z."

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And so the advice I am giving you is to track your urgency. And what is likely to happen is, some days, you'll be like, "Oh my God. I've been driven by urgency for the last five hours. I haven't tracked it. I'm recognizing it when I'm at a 10. I'm drowning. I'm overstimulated. I'm running on empty."

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And what happens when you get to that point where you're running on empty is you have resentments.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Yes. Yes. Now, it's not your fault; it's fill-in-the-blank's fault. And this is a very complex issue because, on the one hand, this person is taking advantage, contextual to industry standards a little bit, but still taking advantage. Does that feel correct?

Guest:              That feels correct.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean—and let's just be clear. We all know there's fucking late-stage capitalism, right? Everybody's struggling.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Everything is foundationally unethical. What are we going to do?

Guest:              Right. It's just the water that we are in.

Jessica:            It's the water that we are in. Yes.

Guest:              And that's what feels really clear when I go to work. This is the water that we are in. The chaos is from all the way at the top down to my job.

Jessica:            Absolutely. And I really like the way you're wording it, and I'm probably going to steal it because it's really like there's just no other way of saying it. It's complex. And there's something about being a florist. Because it's like this luxury and it's for sympathy or celebration, it's like sex work. It's like a fantasy of you can't see the labor behind it. You can't see the messiness behind it. You can't see the urgency behind it because you're just supposed to be touched by the flowers, right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            It's messy in that way. But dealing in fantasy and the creation of worlds is super your jam. This is a great path for you. I don't mean to shit on the path or the industry but just to acknowledge—because I think a lot of people just don't know anything about the florist world at all.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            But your sense of urgency is sometimes justifiable. There's a deadline. There's a need. Somebody didn't show up—whatever the fuck it is, right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And I want to just take a moment to hold space for that, because when there's an actual urgent situation, your feelings of urgency don't actually help you. You think they help you in the moment. What that activation out of urgency does is it strips your sense of agency, your sense of, "I'm making a choice in this moment," because you have no choice—because, because, because, right?

                        And you have this Pluto conjunction to Mercury, and it's a little bit wide. But it is conjunct your Sun. So being driven by a powerful need to prove yourself or urgency—it's hardwired in your chart. And that doesn't mean you cannot find a healthier relationship to it. It just means it's in your default settings.

Guest:              Right. It feels unconscious. It feels like a place that feels comfortable for me. And I, in the past, would have gotten to the resentment and been like, "Whatever. Blow it up." And I'm trying to approach it a little different this time.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, this is, again, classic Christ year stuff because now you're post-Saturn Return. So blowing shit up is consequential in a way that it wasn't in your 20s. In your 20s, you have these experiences that teach you, "Oh shit. I don't want to do that again." "Oh shit. That was so much more work to clean up than it was to break." You can't know it until you try it, really. But now you're finally at this age where you're like, "Huh. I know how much energy it'll cost me to break this up, so I don't want to break it unless I have to break it."

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And you're correct about that. But I want to kind of again bring you back to the importance of this homework I'm giving you of tracking your own urgency. And if you, whatever your number is—it's a 10, it's a 3, whatever—asking yourself, "Do I have a choice?" And if you tell yourself the answer is no, "No, I don't have a choice. It has to get done," ask yourself again, "And also, do I have a choice?" because the answer, nine out of ten times, is yes, you have a choice. There are only extreme conditions upon which we do not have choice. You may have bad choices, but you have choice.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            And remembering that you have choice connects you to your sense of agency—again, your ability to choose. And you're a Sagittarius; you love your ability to choose. It's at your center.

Guest:              I need to be free.

Jessica:            You need to be free.

Guest:              I love being free.

Jessica:            Yes. Yes. And so the thing that I'm seeing here—and please tell me if I'm wrong, but the thing that I'm seeing here is that your job is actually not the problem. I mean, there's lots of problems with your job. That's not what I'm saying. There's lots of problems with your job, but your job is not the problem. The problem is that you are encountering a pattern that you've been playing out through your adulthood—

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            —that you are aware of, but that awareness hasn't translated to change. It's just translated to, oh, now you're doing something that hurts you. You're aware you're doing it, but you haven't figured out how to stop doing it.

Guest:              Correct.

Jessica:            Yeah, which I want to say is very 10 out of 10 stars adulting. I know it feels like shit, but it's the step before change for all of us post-Saturn Return.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So hold on. Let me just see this. I'm going to have you say your full name out loud.

Guest:              Mm-hmm. It's [redacted].

Jessica:            You have a very good, high-level understanding of this pattern, right? Like, "Oh, I'm abandoning myself, and it's playing out in x, y, and z ways." What I want to encourage you to do is simplify it. Simplify it because what's happening is your high-level understanding is actually making this more complicated than it is. If you practice making choices and being accountable to your choices, you break some of the magic in this pattern.

Guest:              Yes. That makes sense.

Jessica:            And this looks like—and do you mind if I talk about your dad a little bit?

Guest:              I do not.

Jessica:            Okay. This looks like it's a pattern out of your patrilineage. Your dad is always like, "It's not my fault. My circumstances made me do this." Nothing is his fault. Nothing is his fault. He's constantly pointing to people and circumstances to say, "This is why this happened. This is how this happened." Does that make sense, from what you know of him?

Guest:              I really don't know much about him, but I do know that he had children with multiple women, and he was not really part of my life at all.

Jessica:            Was he part of any of the kids' lives that you're aware of?

Guest:              He was part of my two half-brothers' lives, yes.

Jessica:            He's a very complicated guy, like not the kindest person in the world, from what I can see. I am sorry about that. But there's this pattern—this is the fucked-up thing. It doesn't matter if we're raised by our parents; they're a part of us, right? We have our ancestry. We have our patterns. And this thing, contextual to your lived experience, your life, your myriad of cultural contexts, is radically different than it is with him. It's not the same thing. But this pattern of getting into situations where you feel your hands are tied and there's nothing you can do but the thing you to choose to do is just hardwired in you. And your mom is not like that, eh?

Guest:              No. She's more of someone that will blow it up and walk away and get out of there.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Your mom is like—you know, I actually don't even want to go into your mom too much because I don't want it to distract me, but this is the thing that's hard about not being raised with a particular parent. It's hard to rebel against something that you see in a parent if you never get to see it in your parent. This pattern, from my psychic perspective, is—there's like a part of you, and it's not a conscious part, but there is this part of you that it's like—this actually is like an energetic tie to him. It's not a great one. It doesn't do anything good for you. But it's hard for that little kid inside of you to let this part go, because it is actually like—this thread comes from his side, basically. And so do you go woo? Do you go into witchy shit?

Guest:              A little bit. Yeah.

Jessica:            A little bit. Okay. If ever you feel so inclined to do a cord-cutting ritual—and there's lots of rituals you can find out in the world, depending on your cultural resonance or whatever—a cord-cutting ritual some Full Moon of releasing any cords that bind you to him that are not helpful to you, so not cutting all cords, because that's actually not helpful. It's just the ones that don't serve you. And this is one of them. Now, that's on an energy, deep woo level. On a more pragmatic level, track your urgency, and what you will come up against is your own stubbornness.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You're welcome. The thing about stubbornness is it is power, isn't it?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            If I try to get you to change the station on the TV, I'm trying to get you to do something, and you're like, "No. I'm not doing it, and it's not going to happen," that's power, you know?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And in work situations, you flipty-flopty with, "I don't have a choice. I have to do this. Urgent, urgent, urgent," and, "I'm not doing that. There's no fucking way I'm going to be okay with this. I will do this, and I will hate it every moment of it."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            They're heads and tails of the same coin. And then you will have choice. Do you want to work for someone else, or do you want to be self-employed?

Guest:              I want to be self-employed.

Jessica:            And are you in a position where you can do that?

Guest:              It does not feel like that.

Jessica:            Uh-huh. Have you thought about what that would take in order to get there?

Guest:              I have, and I feel a lot of fear when I start to dig into those steps. It's just a lack of stability. That's what comes up.

Jessica:            Like financial stability?

Guest:              Financial stability. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So there's a number of things I want to say. You like partnerships, yeah?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. For better and for worse. Part of you likes partnerships because it allows you to stay in this pattern, right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And part of you likes partnerships because you like partnerships. So I just want to name that. Do you have friendships with people who own hospitality spaces, like—you know what I'm talking about? Like hotels, Airbnb?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            BNBs, not Airbnbs. BNBs. Do you have friends in that space?

Guest:              I have friends in the restaurant industry—

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              —but yeah, not in that Bead and Breakfast or that kind of thing. Yeah.

Jessica:            Because, for some reason, I keep on seeing you partnering with somebody in hospitality with some sort of existing business, like a beautiful space that has venues, like has wedding stuff happen or—do you know what I'm saying? You could theoretically investigate building out a business that is a partnership with, but you own this part.

Guest:              I hear you. I understand. I can see what you're seeing.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And how does that feel when I say that?

Guest:              It feels right, and it feels like something I tried and then I ran away, or I started the conversation and then I got scared. And my feet got pulled, and I was like, "Ahh, I gotta get out of here."

Jessica:            When was this?

Guest:              This was in 2024.

Jessica:            Okay, so not long ago.

Guest:              Not that long ago. Yeah.

Jessica:            But also, the opportunity is gone.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Mm-hmm. You were not ready. And also, I don't know that you're ready this week either, right? You could be ready at this time, but the chances are high that you would create a really terrible work/life balance. You're not a great boss to yourself, because you drive yourself so hard, right?

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              Into the ground.

Jessica:            Into the ground. And so I want to hold space, as a good Capricorn would, for—listen. You start a business; you're going to work too much. You're going to work too hard. You know what I mean? That is actually how most businesses start. And the idea that we should start with a healthy work/life balance—it's just like nothing works like that. It's like that's a fantasy. You know what I mean? Building in that direction is a good idea.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            Being able to self-regulate and recognize when you are operating out of a sense of urgency and creating harmful patterns in your life—that's the homework right now so that when an opportunity emerges in your life that actually could work for you, you can take it and not just re-create the bullshit you're already in, with more risk—

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            —which you couldn't have done in 2024.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            You were not there.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And currently, Pluto is squaring your Moon. Your Moon is at 3 degrees of Scorpio. And it's triggering all of your  scarcity issues, like all of them. So this would not be the easiest time for you to start a business. This is, instead, a really good time for you to work on the emotional side of your relationship to spending money and navigating your resources and how you feel about money and resources.

                        Part of this pattern kind of requires that you're the employee that's being taken advantage of. That's the pattern that you're invested in.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            So, if you weren't the employee who's being taken advantage of, then you'd be the boss.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And there is a part of you that's very uncomfortable with the idea of being the boss, the landlord, the etc., etc.

Guest:              Yeah. Makes sense.

Jessica:            Yeah. Mm-hmm. You want to own your own business?

Guest:              Yes, ish.

Jessica:            Say more. Say more. Say more.

Guest:              I think I feel a lot of fear around it. Because I have fear of this pattern, I can feel how it would be really easy for myself to get swept up in it. And I also know that when you create systems, that there's a possibility for harm to happen. And I think that I feel really harmed by all of the systems that I have been in in work, and I feel a lot of fear around creating something that would be positive for someone or positive for me. You know?

Jessica:            Yeah. That's real. That's real. It's very complicated, isn't it?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            It's very complicated.

Guest:              I feel like, if I didn't have to work, if I didn't have to do this, I wouldn't. And we have to do this, right? We're in this system. We're in this world. And—

Jessica:            What would you do if you didn't have to do it?

Guest:              I would be swimming all the time and lounging and making art and learning about all the things that I want to know about. I would be in nature. I would be human-ing.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              I would be a human.

Jessica:            You'd just be human-ing. You'd be like animal human doing the thing. Okay. Sounds lovely. Also, those are all summertime activities, and I know that you live in like six months of winter.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So it's interesting that you described summer vacation. In your idea of what you would do if you didn't have this job, tell me, what would you do in the winter for six months, literally half the fucking year? Right? Am I right about that? Where you live, it's like five, six months?

Guest:              Yeah. It's five months.

Jessica:            Five months.

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            So, five months of the year, what are you doing for those five months where there's no swimming and sunning and such and thus?

Guest:              Learning. Reading.

Jessica:            Okay. And do you think that would make you happy, reading for five months, studying?

Guest:              Yeah, it probably wouldn't. It probably wouldn't make me happy now [indiscernible 00:25:33] fulfilling. Yeah.

Jessica:            No, it wouldn't. So part of what you're telling me is you need vacations.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And part of what I kind of nudged you to see is that, actually, the fantasy of what you believe that you want, you actually don't want. I mean, you want the fantasy. But again, the fantasy is called vacation. And so—I love vacation. I love a vacation. And you've never thought about being an educator?

Guest:              No. Mm-mm.

Jessica:            I mean, I only ask because that's the work/life balance, right? They're off in the summer. Here's the thing. When I look at you energetically—and I know we need to talk about your love life, but when I look at you energetically, you like working as a florist. You like touching the plant life, and you like making beautiful art that touches people and does things.

Guest:              Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            It feeds you, actually, yeah?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. But it's kind of like—as we've said, it's like working in a kitchen where it's just like if only it were that simple.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            You know, it's not that simple. But in order to break through this pattern—and let's not forget this larger conversation. We're talking about your Christ year. We're talking about really integrating the lessons of the Saturn Return. In order to break this pattern, it's important that you tap into your agency and recognize that, actually, you do this because you like it. Now, would you do it the way you're doing it if capitalism didn't exist? No.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Would the systems in place be as they are if capitalism wasn't what it was? Abso-fucking-lutely not. Nobody would work the way that you work. But there's so many jobs you could have chosen that didn't demand so much urgency, and you didn't choose any of them for a reason. The urgency—even though it feels like it's being pressed upon you, it engages a part of you that's kind of always online.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You're not an herbalist. You could have been an herbalist, no? Or you could be an herbalist?

Guest:              I could, yeah.

Jessica:            Have you ever thought about it?

Guest:              No, I actually haven't.

Jessica:            Weird.

Guest:              Yeah. I mean, I'm a gardener. But I haven't thought about being an herbalist. Yeah.

Jessica:            That surprises me a little bit because you have kind of a medical healing style mindset. That's just your nature.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And you're good at talking to people. You're good at hanging out in deep, messy places with people.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And it's a career path. But there's not a lot of room for urgency in it because, usually, people don't go to herbalists who are stressed out all the time, rushing to get things done, right? That's not usually where we find our peace. And also, it's not like an artist's job, and you have an artist's job because you're an artist.

Guest:              Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah, although I feel like a lot of herbalists are also artists. Have you noticed that?

Guest:              I think people who work with nature—

Jessica:            Correct.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Correct. Yeah. Exactly. And also, there's something of Venus here, right? Venus governs the arts, but it also governs counseling because counseling people, holding space for people, connecting to people is literally an art. It's not the same as making sculptural beauty with plants. But I'm going to put that in the mix because you are so caught up in the cycle of, "All I can do is this. All I can do is that," that you haven't really looked at your choices. And I'm not trying to point you away from your career, because I actually think you're really great at what you do. But I also have some sense of the limitations of the industry. There's a lot of pressure in this industry.

Guest:              Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jessica:            And I think you can make that work, but you have to believe that you're willing to take on the myriad of burdens that come with it, like how do you source flowers ethically? How do you have employees and not put too much pressure on them when your clients and your finances are putting pressure on you? I mean, these are million-dollar questions that nobody has the answers to, right? Even if you have the answer in the spring of 2028, circumstances may change by the spring of 2029. This is the thing. It requires adaptation. And my question for you is, what's going on inside your little noodle right now?

Guest:              I am thinking about—so I had this experience where I got a scholarship for a doula training and did that in September of last year, and it was—

Jessica:            A birth doula?

Guest:              A full spectrum. Yeah, birth—

Jessica:            Okay. Mm-hmm.

Guest:              —was included in that. And it was one of the most incredible experiences I've had. And I just wanted to ask you a question—

Jessica:            Please.

Guest:              —or just check in about that and just—yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. So you picked something that has no urgency in it whatsoever: birth. Okay. So, first of all, I just felt like we needed to hang out in the comedy of that.

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            I mean, it's perfect for you. I mean, it's perfect for you because the urgency has a healthy place. Again, it's in healthcare. I actually think you're really well suited to healthcare.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            I mean, listen. You're also well suited to self-employment, so healthcare within alternative care, probably, which—doulas can be in a system; they can be outside a system, depending.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Here's the thing. Can I picture you fucking with glorious plant life, making art, making medicine, helping humans come into the world through other humans' bodies, being in this very pragmatic—because your Saturn is in the fifth house, but it's close to your sixth-house cusp, and you have a Virgo Rising—have this very pragmatic, kind of beautiful wellness practice and being successful? Fuck yeah, I could picture that. Constantly learning, constantly growing, connecting with different people.

                        Here's my "but." There are so many choices that you need to make, and they're all risky, risky, risky, risky. And you're not exactly risk averse, and also, you're super risk averse. It's confusing. It's a little confusing, yeah?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And your North Node is at the bottom of your chart. It's conjunct your IC. What that tells me is that the career you choose for yourself is meant to support having a healthy home life. And I don't exactly think that what you're doing now doesn't support a healthy home life. And also, being closer to self-employed in healthcare/healing space—I get such a yes on it. I don't necessarily know that you're making that choice at this time, but I do get such a yes on it.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            In that world, I imagine you would, at times, be gone from the house a lot and then at home a lot because a birth schedule is a bananas schedule. And if we're being realistic about the state of giving birth and being pregnant in the United States at this time, it's really shaky territory. The need for that skill set is very strong, and also, the risk is higher.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            So I want to tell you what I'm seeing energetically as I'm saying all of this. You're being very pleasant. Now, you're a cat. I can't see your face. But all of your words are very pleasant, very affirming. You're not disagreeing. But energetically, it's like you're a balloon, and your balloon is going further and further away from your body.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And this is, in part, because something in you collapses at having to navigate this reality.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It just feels so exhausting to you that it puts you in this state of mind where you're like, "I'd rather just have a boss and clock in/clock out."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And this makes you very unhappy.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's a really deep pattern for you. And it's not like a conscious choice you're making. It's really emotional for you. It's really, really emotional. And this maladjusted coping mechanism is self-protection.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And what you're protecting yourself from is insecurity.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            It's not exactly fear. It's not exactly grief. It's, if you step into your power, who are you? So much of your identity is kind of rooted in being in a reactive state. And you are scared of being totally accountable in your power. And—oh. I see. This is going to bleed into talking about your love life. Get ready.

Guest:              Oh boy.

Jessica:            Oh boy. Oh boy. Sorry. I just saw it, and I was like, "Oh, I see. There's a through line there." But it is totally okay to be insecure. It's actually super normal to be insecure. Everybody is insecure. Some people are a lot more insecure than others, and some people are a lot more insecure about certain things than others, right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            Your insecurity is so hard for you to sit with that you really—abandon yourself is, like, understatement. You just dissolve away from yourself. And if you can create a practice—so now I'm giving you another piece of really pragmatic homework here. When you start to notice the feeling, which—it looks like you don't even realize you're doing it until you're really deep and you're sad and bad feelings. But if you can practice noticing when you're starting to feel that way and ask yourself—let's do it right now because you're feeling that way right now, yeah?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Take a moment. Just take a little breath. Put your little feet on the ground if you can, or just uncross your ankles. And ask yourself what emotion is underneath that top layer feeling.

Guest:              It feels so foggy.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. Okay. It does feel so foggy. So I saw you started to tumble down, and then I also saw it was so foggy, and I was like, "I don't know," but then I saw this one—like a branch sticking out of the hole as she was tumbling down. And that she, of course, is you. And it was fucking outrage. It was anger.

Guest:              That makes so much sense, actually.

Jessica:            Yeah. And it is really not what I expected to see because it's this disempowered, sad, bad—but what's really under it is just like, "I want to burn this to the ground. This is intolerable. I'm fucking outraged. There's only one thing to do, and it's kick and scream."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So okay. Already, you can feel a little bit more like yourself, right?

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. I'm going to give you this homework.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            The next time you start to feel that disempowered floating away from yourself, slow down. Do the process of getting grounded. And ask yourself, is that feeling, that outrage and anger and rage—is that underneath it all? And it doesn't have to be a yes or a no. What you'll notice—this is how it came up inside of you. It was like a flash that you felt in your body, and you pushed it down really expertly and swiftly.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So you want to just track what comes up quickly in your body because your coping mechanisms shove it down really quickly. Notice that. And if, in fact, you're angry, is there a healthy way that you can allow yourself to have anger? So one piece of homework I'm going to give you is, when you realize that you have anger, is to say to yourself, "That's okay. I'm allowed to be angry." Don't pair it to capitalism or your boss or something you did wrong, so you're angry at yourself. It's just about saying, "This is an emotion. I'm allowed to have this emotion. It's okay." Oh my God. Okay. So, just as I say that, something in you kind of opens wider. Do you feel that at all?

Guest:              I do. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's just—

Guest:              Yeah. It feels clear, and it also feels like something that my therapist has also illuminated for me, too. I definitely go through cycles of feeling really low and sad, and she tends to remind me that when you're experiencing depression, it's usually anger collapsed in on itself.

Jessica:            Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Guest:              So yeah.

Jessica:            And that's not true for everyone. It's true for you.

Guest:              It's true with me.

Jessica:            It's true for you. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. And so here's another piece of homework I'm going to give you. Do you like dancing?

Guest:              I love dancing.

Jessica:            Have you ever tried capoeira?

Guest:              I haven't.

Jessica:            There's a dance element to it.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            You might also check out kickboxing.

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            A lot of people really love the kickboxing. I'm trying to see if there's any other combat that you would enjoy because it doesn't look like you would enjoy punching with your hands as much as with your legs. Oh, you like singing?

Guest:              I love singing. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So, when in doubt, get in your car and sing at the height of your lungs. And do it on purpose. Allow yourself to feel helpless, hopeless, like you're floating away from yourself, and then find the voice because you're, like, back in. You're back in. Right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            You're in the 90 percentile back in your body. But I was losing you. You were the fuck out there. You know what I mean?

Guest:              I know.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              I felt it. I felt it.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              This is where I have been for the last three or four months, and it's making me feel [crosstalk].

Jessica:            Bananas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing to know is that it's a coping mechanism.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And you're not allowing yourself to be angry, so you're shoving it down. But the problem is you're shoving that rage down inside of you. It's like hoarding your own trash. It stinks up your house, but no one knows unless you let them in, right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And what's happening for you is exactly what you need to have happen for you in order for you to be motivated to make a change. You're fucking miserable. It's not working, right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And so the answer of, "Well, what should I do for a living?" or, "Should I stay working for this woman?" or, "Should I explore being a doula?"—those things are secondary to this.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You work on this, and then those choices feel like choices, whereas now, they're like pressure, necessity, urgency stuff.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Right. Right.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            I'm going to shift gears to your love life because I do think you have a question about that. Am I correct?

Guest:              I don't necessarily have a question. I'm just curious as to how I can navigate boundaries in my relationships.

Jessica:            So not just with your partner.

Guest:              Not just with my partner, but with everyone.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And have you tried using your words?

Guest:              I have. I have. I have. And you know, I do feel like I'm a pretty clear communicator. And I think as I'm going through this time of feeling really foggy, I feel like I'm being clear and like maybe things are not being heard. So it's putting me in this kind of childhood place of feeling unheard, being the very quiet little girl, the very obedient little girl. You want to do that, yes, yes, yes. And so that is how it's showing up in all of my relationships, not only my romantic one.

Jessica:            I see. Okay. So there's a couple things I'm going to say. You have a Pluto/Mercury conjunction. People with Pluto/Mercury conjunctions will often withhold communication as a way to mitigate disappointment and resentments.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So, when I asked you if you tried using your words, I was setting you up because I know you aren't—you're an excellent communicator, but that doesn't mean that you're willing to take the chance to say, "I need you to check in on me because I'm having a rough time, but I also need you to give me a little bit of space in terms of my response time." You're not saying directly. You're dropping really beautiful hints. Am I right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah, I am.

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. The truth is very healing. The truth is very healing. Okay.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So I'm going to give you this homework.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            The next time you're thinking about dropping a hint to a friend or a loved one, write down, either on a piece of paper or in the notes of your phone, what the hint is, what you want to say to them, because you come up with these well-crafted hints that no one would get but you, as is evidenced by your whole life, right? Sorry, but real talks.

Guest:              Seriously.

Jessica:            Okay. Yes. So then what you're going to do is put out, okay, a couple spokes. So the hint is, "Gee, I could use some dessert." And then you want to put out the spokes, what you want that person to hear from you, that you need nourishment, that you want attention, that you would really like them to bring you a specific chocolate cake from a specific restaurant. Okay?

So what I'm getting at here is make a list out of your hint of the specific things that you want to communicate. And just practice noticing the difference. That's all. You don't have to communicate differently. Just practice noticing the difference between what you actually want them to glean and what you're actually saying. Here's the thing. If you get into a practice of being really direct with people, they will think you are a bitch.

Guest:  Yeah. I've gotten that already.

Jessica:            Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody who practices having healthy boundaries gets that, everybody—"You're being mean. You're being demanding. You're being unkind"—because all of your friends know you as a person who's down to roll over.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            So, when you stop rolling over and you start saying, "I'd like something, please," they're like, "The fuck? Where does this come from? You're changing the whole dynamic." And when that occurs, what a lot of people do is say, "Well, God, boundaries don't work." But what I say is, yeah, that's how boundaries work.

If I say to you, "Hey, A, I need you to bring me a cake"—I guess I'm hungry because I keep on saying cake, but, "I need you to bring me cake," and you're like, "That is so much pressure, Jessica. I am going to come over, but I'm not bringing you cake," I have the right to feel hurt. I have the right to feel like, well, I told you what I needed, and you said, "No, I'm not doing it," or maybe you said, "Okay," and then you just didn't do it. And now it's my responsibility to navigate these questions—the question of, A, does a person have to do what I say in order for me to feel heard and loved?

                        Sometimes the answer is yes; sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes it's not that direct and simple. The other question to ask is, now that I know that my friend, A, will not bring me cake when I tell them that I'm desperate for cake, do I need to shift my expectations of this relationship? So boundaries do work. They just don't magically give you what you want.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            They tell you who you're dealing with. I'm a big "three strikes and you're out" kind of person, and not that you always have to be out at three strikes, but if I ask you to bring me cake, and you're like, "I'm just not doing that for you," okay. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. And then maybe I need cake again and you're coming over, and I'm like, "Can you just pick up the cake?" and you're just like, "Sure," but you don't do it, and that happens a third time, now I have information about you. If it happens once, maybe twice over the course of a long period of time, that's not reliable information, necessarily. My way of holding it is, at the third time, now we have a pattern.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            The first three times I ask you for cake—it's a terrible example I'm using, but whatever. The first three times I ask you for cake, it's really on you. I'm asking you to help me in this way, etc. But at the fourth time, if I come back and I'm like, "Hey, will you bring me cake?" now it's on me. Now it's actually on me. Why am I asking you to do something that you keep on saying no to? Now I'm not respecting your boundary, or I'm not listening to our incompatibilities and our differences.

Guest:              Right. Yes. And that feels [crosstalk].

Jessica:            Bad. Yeah. It also feels terrible, right? It's bad. Yeah.

Guest:              It feels terrible, and it feels right, like I feel like I can feel like I'm not being heard and not listening, and yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            It's just about using the information. What happens for people when they start having boundaries is we collapse, and we're like, "These boundaries just don't work." But boundaries don't mean we control other people. Boundaries mean that we have boundaries, and other people get to be themselves. And when we all of a sudden have boundaries, we inevitably lose friends. That's not just you and not just me. That's everybody. And the Saturn Return itself is a transit that coincides with a loss of community and a loss of friends, and it's not because something's wrong with you; it's because you recognize that you've outgrown people and dynamics.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And the Christ year comes back. After the Saturn Return, you have a few years, and the Christ year comes back. And you're like, "Oh shit. Did I re-create the same fucking relationships with people? Did I fall back into relationships with people? Did I use to be friends with people who wouldn't bring me chocolate cake, and now they won't bring me strawberry cake?" You know. We need to cultivate awareness around the part of the pattern that's ours.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            Okay. So now you're leaving your body again.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. Did you notice that at all? Did you notice that?

Guest:              Yeah, I did.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              I did.

Jessica:            Because it makes you mad, and you don't think you should have to.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              Yeah. But it's because of the way that I take shape in relationships because I am self-sacrificing. I will do whatever. I will show up in whatever shape. I will contort myself—

Jessica:            Totally.

Guest:              —so that someone can say, "Thank you so much. I appreciate you. I see you. You're seen."

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              And then I get upset if that doesn't come back towards me. I have experienced my mom do this, and I try not to do it in her way, which is outward anger. But I'm just doing it to myself.

Jessica:            It's just—yeah. It's just a—

Guest:              Yeah. It's the same.

Jessica:            It's the same thing.

Guest:              Same, same. Yeah.

Jessica:            And I also want to ask, you're very good at what you described, right? You turn yourself inside out. You do everything for everyone. Do you have any friends who are like that as well?

Guest:              I do. Yeah. I do.

Jessica:            Okay. So they would do anything for anyone, and they turn themselves inside out to do things for you?

Guest:              I have friends that will do things for me, yeah, not turn themselves completely inside out. But I do have relationships in where it is reciprocal in that way. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So what I was getting at with my question is not whether or not you have healthy, reciprocal relationships, because I see you do. I mean, healthy is a spectrum for all of us, but you know. You do, for sure. But it's more that I don't think you have many friends who have that same pattern of turning themselves inside out and being like Superwoman in all contexts, in all ways, because if somebody else did that as much as you did that, that would get in the way of your role. You would compete. You don't like people to show up for you at that level. You want to show up for them at that level because it serves something for you. Then you are the recipient of great appreciation.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Right? And the reason why I want to point this out is because there is this part of you that is comfortable getting attention and having power for being helpful, for being a fix-it person—

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            —for saving the day, but uncomfortable—even though you really yearn for it, uncomfortable with having power for just the sake of, "Oh, look, I did something really powerful." So there has to be a loophole that you somehow overcome in order to have power.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So that's a great thing to practice being aware of when it happens because, in those moments, your generosity isn't clean.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            And also, you're stealing from yourself. You're stealing from yourself because you're, again, drilling down on this unconscious belief that you have to overcome something in order to be enough or to be justified or to be powerful, when that's not true at all. You're powerful because you're powerful. You're justified because you're justified. I mean, we don't need excuses and defenses. And of course, I wouldn't say that to all people in all contexts. I am saying that to you contextual to our conversation.

Guest:              Yeah. That power feels like the ego. My ego feels very ambivalent. I feel like I want to be seen and I don't want to be seen.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. So it stands to reason that you would work for people who take advantage of you and be in relationships where people see you when they want to and when it's easier for them. Those things are all worth tracking because—let me look at where your Pluto is. Do you identify as a millennial or Gen Z?

Guest:              Millennial.

Jessica:            Okay. This is like a Pluto in Scorpio, a.k.a. millennial, thing a little bit. This Pluto in Scorpio is like power is bad. Power is corrupting. There's a cultural agreement around that. And listen. I could easily make a case for that being a truth. But it also is not true. Power is just energy.

When we have a fire hose of energy, can it be more destructive than when we have more of a controlled, contained flow of energy? Sure. But you are a fire hose of energy kind of guy—not all the time, but you have access to this huge amount of energy. And so, if you decide that the only way and the only context that you are allowed to run that fire hose is for other people, then you will find life to be really exhausting because you always have to put yourself into a pretzel to find a situation where you can be worthy of using your energy for other people so that you can carve out space where you get to have energy.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            That's a lot of chutes and ladders. That is a lot of wasted energy. And who does it serve?

Guest:              No one.

Jessica:            No one. No one.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And so your rage deserves your inquiry, your curiosity, and you developing a healthier relationship to it. And the only way—when the pendulum swings, it goes from one extreme to another. So, if all you've ever done is repress your rage, once  you start accessing your rage, guess what: you'll be pissed. You'll do a bad job of it. And that's not evidence that you'll always do a bad job or you'll always be pissed all the time. It's just the pendulum swings from extremes to the center where you can find greater agency, greater flexibility, adaptability, and power.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            I mean, really, when it comes down to it, you just want to feel love. You're just like a person who just genuinely—you just want to feel good, and you want other people to feel good. And throughout our reading, that just—it keeps on coming up.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And I just want to say that that is true. That is what is true for you. And also, these other things are true that we've been talking about. And these other things—your relationship to them is you are not loving yourself through them.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            In order to really love other people, we do have to be able to love ourselves.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            In order to really have people see us and get us, we have to be able to see and get them. There needs to be a flow of energy. And there is this way that you have all of this flow on the surface, but then underneath, your relationship to yourself—there are conditions. There are consequences. There are ways that you are just the opposite of loving towards yourself, like so mean, so minimizing, and just unkind.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And within that, there's anger, there's defensiveness, and there's sadness. Right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And you said you have been dealing with depression?

Guest:              Yeah. I mean, I think depression is a constant. It's something that has been present throughout my life. And I would say around the Saturn Return time was the first time I experienced it in a way where I was like, "Oh, I have no tools to get myself out."

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Except you know what? Here's the thing. You actually do. And that's the good news, is it's just that the tool is a spoon. You know what I mean? And you're digging yourself out slowly.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And when you sit in that fucking subterranean prison that you have crafted with your circumstances and context, context, and you're using the spoon and you're making progress, but it's the progress one makes with a spoon, it's easy to tell yourself that you're not making any progress. But you are, because what was going on during your Saturn Return was different than what's going on now—

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            —in your mental health, in terms of you taking accountability and resourcing yourself in your relationships and at work.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And that's all you can fucking hope for. For reals, it's all you can hope for—not to no longer have these problems. Every time Saturn transits itself, you will have different versions of these problems because that's just how astrology works. That's how human development works. What we want is for those problems to evolve. That's all. That's all because you function off of your birth chart. And the more capacity you create for yourself to be kind to yourself—I mean, first, you need to catch yourself being a jerk.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And you haven't done that yet. You're like, "Oh my God. For the last week, I've been a jerk to myself." You haven't gotten to the point yet where you're like, "Oh, I can feel the shift. I'm out of my body, and I'm aware that I just left my body." Right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            This is like a many-years-long project. That's why I said it's a spoon.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And that doesn't mean you won't get there. Oh, you'll get there. You'll get there. If you stay with this, you'll for sure get there. It's just slow work. And in the meantime, you're dealing with relationship dynamics that you want to say are your fault or their fault. I mean, you have a Scorpio Moon. That's never going to totally go away. It's always going to be somebody else's fault or your fault. And also, you know that it's not that simple.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            It's choices and consequences. It's compatibility. It's choices. It's consequences. And you don't want there to be consequences, and you don't want to have to make choices. And I respect that. And also, that's not post-Saturn Return living.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            I think that there are some people in your life that are probably not going to be in your life forever. There are some people in your life that, if you adapt your expectations and also what you give to those relationships, they can be really healthy relationships for you. But if you treat everyone like family and everyone like a best friend and you show up for everyone at a 10 even when they've shown you that they are not going to do the same and that it's not a soft place for you to land, it no longer is what's wrong with them. It becomes what's going on with you.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So this is not about blame, my Scorpio Moon friend. This is instead about choice. And can you choose to say to me, "I'll meet you at the café, and you can get yourself some cake and we can eat it there," right? You can ask me to meet you in the middle. It doesn't always have to be me saying, "You need to bring me cake." Why are you bringing me cake in my metaphor? You're allowed to ask me to meet you in the middle, and when I don't meet you in the middle or I meet you in the middle in a way that doesn't feel right to you, you get to change your expectations, change how you show up with me and for me.

Guest:              Yeah. The thing about family, treating everybody like a best friend, you know, being an only child, not having siblings, having fragmented familial relationships—I have been trying to make a family for a long time.

Jessica:            Yeah. And I just want to say to you you can have family. I mean, you do already have family. You've done a good job of it. But also, not everyone can be in your family. Not everyone should be in your family. Do not let everyone in your family.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            I mean, you know that, technically.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            But in the moment, it feels like, "Oh, I'm being rejected, and you don't want to be a part of my family," instead of you being like, "Oh, I don't like the way you are. I don't want you in my family. This is, again—it's what we talked about with your boss. It's hard for you to recognize, "Oh, I'm making a choice here based on my preference, my needs," instead of being at a 10 with urgency of, "Everything is a reflection of my value as a person." Not everything is. Some things are a reflection of compatibility. Some things are a reflection of someone having a shitty day or not having gone to therapy enough or whatever else, right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            Now I want to just take a moment, and genuinely take a moment, and see, have we addressed this? Is there a final question? Is there something lingering in there?

Guest:              Yeah, I feel foggy. It's hard to know if there is a question. I think I have to just sit and process.

Jessica:            So let me say this to you. That fogginess—because there's a lot of people who—I look at their chart, and I'm like, "Oh yeah. You get foggy." That's not you. Your fogginess, according to me—and I am not an expert, but according to me—when I say I'm not an expert, I mean I'm not an expert on you. You're an expert on you. Your fogginess is the strongest symptom that you're out of your body. And you only leave your body when you have an emotion that you don't know how to feel or you don't want to feel, okay?

                        And so that fogginess tells me, and I want you to hear, that there's—right now, it just feels like sadness, like you don't want all of your friendships to not work out perfectly. It weirdly makes you very, very sad. And I say "weirdly" because I'm not a sentimental Capricorn. But it makes you very, very sad to imagine—you just want things to work.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You just want things to work. And it does make you really, really sad. So, because this isn't the moment to fully tap into your emotions—we're having a conversation. It's a podcast. Our reading is almost over. You've kind of shelved your emotions. Perfectly fine. The problem is the way you've done it.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You've done it like a punishment to yourself. Have you ever heard the term ACAB?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. So that includes the cop in your mind. You've got this very carceral relationship to yourself.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And it's not serving you.

Guest:              Yeah. This is something that I'm really good at.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              And it's taken me so long with just my therapist to even get to a point where I can not shelf the emotions in this really punitive way.

Jessica:            It's a punitive way. That's what it is. Shelving emotions is a really great tool, but man, you do it mean. And so the way to work through this is to notice you're doing it, and if you can, 1 to 10, give it a number. You did an 8. According to me, you did an 8 at the end of our reading, okay? And you're not allowed—you're doing it right now. Now you're judging yourself for doing an 8. You're like, "Oh, I really fucked up. I was mean to myself." So you can't stop policing yourself by policing yourself.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            That's like using ICE to take over the cops. What does that do? What are you doing? What are you doing? This doesn't make sense. So I want you to use that language because that actually works on you. You kind of were like, "Oh, no, I'm not doing that." But you are doing that.

Guest:              I'm doing it.

Jessica:            So you want to be like, "Am I using the local police force to take over for ICE to take over for the military?" Do you know what I'm saying?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You're not allowed to do that. So, instead, I have puppy talk rules. And you can use kitten talk rules or baby talk rules, whatever it is that you love the most, okay?

Guest:              I'm more of a kitten person.

Jessica:            Okay. Kitten talk rules. I just figured by the filter you chose, you're a kitten. Okay. So kitten talk rules is you're not allowed to talk to yourself in a tone of voice that you wouldn't talk to a kitten in.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. That changes everything. You're not allowed to talk to yourself with verbiage, with language, that you wouldn't talk to a kitten in. You're not allowed to approach yourself with energy any worse than the energy you would approach a kitten with. And all the shit you pull on yourself you would never do to a kitten. You would just not. You would not.

Guest:              Mm-mm. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So kitten talk rules. When you catch yourself being a cop in your own mind and punishing yourself for having a coping mechanism that you want to outgrow, what you want to do is be like, "Oh, I'm catching myself doing it. How do I restate that in a way I would say it to a kitten?" That's all. That's the assignment. And I will say this is something for you to do for the next decade, okay? Let me give you—this is a spoon. I'm giving you a spoon. I'm not giving you a drill. This is just a spoon, but it works. But it works. And it's such a simple concept. Don't be a jerk. Just be nice, and be as nice to yourself as you would be to a cat.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            It's such a small ask. And every time you fail at this, which you will do a lot, then your job is, again—what do we do? We don't use ICE to replace the police.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So now you go back to kitten talk rules.

Guest:              Kitten talk rules. Kitten talk rules.

Jessica:            Great. Great. It really works. It works. Whenever I mention ICE, you're in, all of a sudden.

Guest:              I'm in. I'm in.

Jessica:            You're [crosstalk] police. Great.

Guest:              [crosstalk].

Jessica:            Yes. Exactly. Okay. Good. Good. Good. So this is really great. And what you can work on with your therapist over the course of time is, "Okay. What are we going to recognize is your policing voice and what is your ICE voice, and what is"—you know what I mean? You can start to track the subtle differences over time.

Right now, it's all just, "Oh my God. I'm overwhelmed," and you can't feel anything anymore. You get fuzzy. But as you practice noticing it, there will be total differences of you being mean to yourself and then you being mean to yourself for being mean to yourself. I mean, it's nice to be complicated and smart. Yeah, you. Sorry.

Guest:              [crosstalk].

Jessica:            It's wonderful. It's wonderful. But you see where I'm going with this, right?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So you will get there, and it will take time, and you will be bad at it. And that's just the process. I mean, listen. I'm not trying to make you bad at it, but I'm just saying, if you're bad at it and you're trying, then that's a sign that you're on the right path, not that it's a sign that you shouldn't be doing it.

Guest:              Right. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And I just want you to notice, even though we talked about something very heavy at the end, you have more energy now than you did a few minutes ago.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Right?

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay, because instead of damning yourself, you created space for you to just have complexity. That's it.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And so this process will mitigate your experience of depression because, in the course of our time together, you've experienced real depressive feelings at times. And then we have a five-minute conversation, and then you're not feeling that way anymore. And it's not because I'm doing magic on you.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            I just want you to know.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. This is like something you can do on your own over time. I mean, you're not going to be great at it at first. That's fine. It's fine. Again, you just want to stay with the practice.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Yes. We did it. We did it.

Guest:              Yeah. We did it. We did it.

Jessica:            We did it.

Guest:              Jessica, oh my God. Thank you so much.

Jessica:            It's so my pleasure.