Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:            Okay. We are doing a love reading with C and D. Welcome to the podcast. What are we doing our reading about?

D:                    Hello.

Jessica:            Hello, hello.

C:                    I will just read the question that I sent in. "Hi, Jessica. My partner is a gorgeous, masc-presenting, Black, Queer woman who has never really self-identified as woo. She has experienced connections to ancestors, dream visions, and other woo witchery. But I'm significantly more woo and a Triple Capricorn Hapa whose guilty pleasure is unsolicited advice. Both as partners and as persons, we've been on such a wild ride these past three years, and we both want to ride out all the rest of our years together. I want to use astrology and energy work as technologies to reflect, regulate, and repair in our relationship, but I'm not quite sure how to get there while I'm still a recovering advice addict. Can you, fellow Cap daddy, help me find a right relationship with advocating for my needs while not overstepping someone else's self-determination? Can you help D find her own entry point into the more than human world, especially the ways it can help us grieve and rest?"

Jessica:            Okay. I'd like to point out how much I love this question and how you're like, "I'm a recovering advice giver. I'm into woo. Can you help my partner embrace woo?"

C:                    Yep.

Jessica:            It's pretty funny. It's good. I wasn't sure if you did that on purpose or not. So, D, this is C's question. Is this also your question? Are parts of it less your question or more—or is there something you would add to this question or subtract?

D:                    Sure. So I would say the beginning part on what C wants to work on is definitely C's, and I am interested in some sort of entry point for me. What makes sense for me?

Jessica:            I'm going to ask you to be slightly more clear. Are you saying—the unsolicited advice thing, is that relevant to you?

D:                    Not directly, I wouldn't say.

Jessica:            Okay. So you don't feel like you're getting a lot of unsolicited advice in the relationship?

D:                    I don't think, in general, I'm getting a lot of unsolicited advice. No.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. Is that surprising to you, C?

C:                    I mean, it's good news. It's something that I've been intentionally working on for a few years, so it's what I hoped to hear. But I know it's also still the pattern I fall into.

Jessica:            I see. Okay. And in terms of le woo, like astrology and other woo stuff, D, do you feel in any way overwhelmed or pressed or anything by the way that C holds it or brings it into the relationship?

D:                    No, I don't feel that way at all. If anything, it's more I'm coming from a place of I know nothing, so pointing out different charts and things being in different houses or on different rotations doesn't really mean a lot because I don't have, really, the context. But I appreciate it.

Jessica:            So you appreciate it? You like it?

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. So here's my question, then, because there's—okay. So there's ways that, C, I could give you a reading about the things you're asking about, but it doesn't sound necessarily like it's a relationship problem—question mark?

C:                    Sure, it gets into the territory for me because I use some of these woo approaches in my life, and it'd be helpful to use them in our relationship. Anytime there's conflict or we need to regulate together or—it'd be helpful to do it through a woo lens. And I'm not sure how to get there.

Jessica:            Interesting. Okay. Let's pull up your charts. Wait a sec. You said you're a triple Capricorn. Do you mean you have three planets in Capricorn, C?

C:                    Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Triple refers to Sun, Moon, Rising.

C:                    Oh, got it.

Jessica:            Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're looking at both of your birth charts. We're not sharing places. And I've got your relationship pulled up, your relationship chart pulled up. Now, D, you don't need to know what any of this means. And, C, do you read charts? Are you looking at this stuff and gleaning data?

C:                    I would say I still feel pretty new, so especially when it comes to looking at all of the major aspects, it does still feel overwhelming.

Jessica:            It is overwhelming, for sure. I mean, it takes years and years and years of study. And so, when you think about—now I'm looking at your relationship chart, which is cast—I'm using composite charts, and it's cast for your location. I love this form of relationship charts because it's literally—the midpoint of C's Sun and D's Sun is your composite Sun. It's like where the two of you meet becomes its own chart and its own thing. So we're going to talk about that in a moment. But your hope, C, is to bring in more woo in what way? How so?

C:                    Yeah. I think there's a specific class that I take online about energy work, about boundaries, and about inner journeying.

Jessica:            Okay. So that's not astrology.

C:                    No, no. That's much more energy work.

Jessica:            Yeah.

C:                    Then, when it comes to astrology, I'd love to be able to talk a little bit more about the planets, but I'm newer to astrology.

Jessica:            Right.

C:                    So it's not something that I can speak to—I don't have access to the advice addiction there because I'm not enough of an expert.

Jessica:            Okay. That's great. And to be clear, though, D does not seem—D, you don't seem like you're at all concerned about getting advice. It doesn't sound like you're feeling pressed about the level of advice that you get in your relationship.

D:                    That is correct. I don't feel pressed. I think sometimes I am a little bit more sensitive about advice that I'm getting, where we've butted heads because [redacted] given advice, and I've been like, "I've got this," and then [redacted] kept giving advice, and I'm like, "Hey, I got this." But I feel like we've gotten a lot better at, you know, if there's advice, "Thank you very much, but I got this."

Jessica:            And how long have the two of you been together?

C:                    Three years in a—

D:                    Going on three years.

C                     Yeah, in a week, I think.

Jessica:            Okay. Congratulations. That's awesome.

C:                    Thank you.

Jessica:            Okay. So there's layers here. Now, let me ask you, C, in this class that you're taking, are you imbibing anything, or is it more just like working with energy and boundaries?

C:                    It's just working with energy and boundaries.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Great. Let's start with you, C. You have this beautiful Sun/Neptune conjunction in Capricorn, right?

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And it does incline you to having access to kind of earth-based spiritual practices that really help you to fill your cup.

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            But boundaries—yeah, not your natural forte. And because you have this Mars in Aquarius—a very anaretic Aquarius—sitting opposite to your Ascendant, a way that you can kind of sidestep boundaries is by being really assertive and really being proactive, right?

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And I'm guessing that that's part of what you're referring to with doing a lot of advice. You also have a Mercury/Uranus conjunction. It means that your mind moves so fast that sometimes you're an interrupter because you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get where you're going. Let me finish the sentence for you."

C:                    It was hard not to do it just then.

Jessica:            Hahaha. I love it. Totally. Totally. I respect you. I respect you. Yeah. And that can drive some people bananas. That doesn't work for everybody. Learning how to listen with your ears as well as with your energy—because your energy is always listening, but with your ears is easier to do when you have the intention that you're not listening to what someone's going to say; you're listening to what someone is choosing to reveal to you. So I could have said any number of things. You knew what I was going to say, right? That's why you were chomping at the bit to finish the sentence

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            But what I chose to say and the way I chose to say it revealed something about my personality, about how I'm connecting with you, about my mood. And if this was not a reading but a personal dynamic, what people say and how they say it is where their agency exists. And being curious about how other people embody their agency is a really powerful practice for you because you're really intuitive, so you often know how people are going to, but if you cultivate more authentic curiosity that requires your nervous system to kind of hang out, maybe hoverboarding above the present moment, but hang out in the moment, your capacity is going to really expand just across the board. This is not specific to your relationship. It's just who you are.

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. D, your brain works super different than that. You have a T-square to Mercury. I'm not going to give you a lot of astro babble. I was about to give you a lot of astro babble, D. I'm not doing that. I'm just going to tell you what I see. Does that sound better?

D:                    Sure.

Jessica:            Okay. Astro babble is fun, but it's not necessary. Okay. The way that your chart works, for you, you process information really emotionally. The way your mind processes information, it's like it has to be at your pace. And that pace is determined by where you're at emotionally.

D:                    Absolutely.

Jessica:            Yeah. And for you, your mind races. It's not that you're not processing, processing, processing, processing. It's that when other people demand that you listen to them in a particular way or say something specific or have a particular opinion, there is a part of you that kind of gets into dragging your heels.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            I mean, it takes a force of nature to be a queerdo, if I may call you that, who does not fuck with astrology. Am I right? That takes intention; does it not? You have to be stubborn.

D:                    I mean, a little bit, or oblivious. Blissfully oblivious.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Here's the thing about you being oblivious. I don't completely buy it. You're obsessive and intense, you're smart as hell, and you're super emo. Would I call you oblivious? Not so much. I'd say you're stubborn.

D:                    That, yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay.

D:                    Let's just admit it.

Jessica:            Okay. Let's just call it. Let's just call it.

D:                    Stubborn it is.

Jessica:            Yes. Let's do that. And so it's actually kind of interesting to me that C is like, "Oh, I'm concerned that it's an issue," and you're like, "Oh, it's not an issue." And you're not saying you want to dive into woo-woo waters, but you're also not saying you don't want to. You're kind of hanging out in the middle. Am I hearing that correctly?

D:                    That is correct. Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. This is what I find so fascinating about that. You are not tepid about anything. Am I wrong?

D:                    I don't think you're wrong.

Jessica:            Oh, I don't think I'm wrong, either. So, when you say, "Eh, whatever. I don't really care. It could go either way," I find that to be sus. I'm using my finger as a chalk on a chalkboard that doesn't exist—sus because you have really strong feelings and opinions about everything. Does this track for you as well, C?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm curious. D, dost thou really not care about the woo stuff, or is that more just, for this conversation, you're being easygoing because you're talking to an actual astrologer?

D:                    I'm genuinely curious about what it is about. I think I haven't put importance into the time of learning more, and I think that's where my difference comes from.

Jessica:            Yeah.

D:                    I don't know much. I can't really have, I don't think, an opinion because I—or I can have an opinion, but it's not as strong as other things because I just don't know enough.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. That's great. Also, I'm genuinely surprised looking at your birth chart that you have the opinion that you can't have an opinion because you don't know a lot, because when I look at your birth chart, I get the sense that you have opinions about everything that are very strong, even when you don't know a lot.

D:                    Sure.

Jessica:            Am I wrong about that?

D:                    I don't think you're wrong.

Jessica:            Okay.

D:                    I don't have the time.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. That's great. I'm not trying to press. I'm just trying to locate you, right?

D:                    Sure. Yeah.

Jessica:            I'm trying to locate you. So I'm going to just kind of pull back a second, and I can drive the conversation any way you want, but I'm going to just create a little space and ask, what do the two of you as a team—what would be the most helpful for me to speak to, if you have any questions? And you don't have to, but if you do.

D:                    I personally would like to know what our group chart means—I believe we're going to get to that—and how we can relate even better than we currently do. That's mine, at least.

Jessica:            Okay. And C?

C:                    I mean, I think that the root of my question is just a little bit about this push-pull with trying to locate D and figure out where the woo can come in. And it's hard to figure that out when I'm like, "I don't know where the woo is in you or where it isn't and you don't want it."

Jessica:            So let me start with that, C, and then we're going to go to you, D. So, as I'm looking at your two individual birth charts, for you, C, the woo is every-fucking-where. Am I right? It's like, whether we're talking about energetic woo or your capacity to perceive symbology and potentiality, you're always pretty connected to woo. Is that correct?

C:                    Lately, yes. Early in life, no.

Jessica:            Okay. Well, that's—I mean, sure. Yeah. I mean, were you raised in a religious household?

C:                    Not exactly, but it was a very strict household.

Jessica:            Yeah. You have that Saturn conjunction to the IC, and it's really about being raised in an environment that was moralistic, punitive, kind of a lot of organization to it, which is why I asked religion, just because religion can go that way. But this is who you are. You are connected, and you want to be connected.

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Now, when I look at D's chart, D is not the same person as you. Some people date because they're so similar. That is not your story.

D:                    Mm-mm.

Jessica:            That is not your story. The two of you are really different. And D does experience deep spiritual things. So, now that I'm actually understanding these questions, I'm like, yeah, ancestral connections, deep issues around sleep. For you, D, sex might be a place where you get weird psychic insights when you're getting with someone. For you, D, spirituality, like in the way that C—Neptune, it's fog. It's ocean spray. It's kind of in the air and everywhere. And D is a lot more Plutonian.

                        And so, for D, with that Mars square to Pluto, what we have is a somatic, physical experience of kind of profound spiritual moments. Does that make sense, D? Have you had profound spiritual moments or encounters?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's how it is. It's like this earth-shaking, intense, gripping thing, whereas for you, C, it's like a practice and a way of being, and there's a fluidity to it. Even the fact—I'm now realizing as I'm talking to the two of you, the backgrounds that you chose kind of encapsulate this perfectly. C, you're above rocks and the Golden Gate Bridge, and there's fog in the background. And, D, you're in space. You're in darkness. Right? It tracks with this topic.

                        And so part of what I want to say to you, C, is that your entry and practice with spirituality is just not going to be the same for D. And, D, when you actually go out of your way to call in spiritual experiences—and is that something you've ever done?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. It can sometimes be a little scary or overwhelming, I imagine.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's because fucking Pluto/Mars square. In English—sorry—you have really intense spiritual, or I should rather say ancestral, connections. It's not just you. There's other people in your lineage that have really intense ancestral connections, really intense spiritual experiences. So the way that, in your family—and I can't tell if it's your matrilineage or your patrilineage, but in your family, the way that your line has navigated surviving that and staying safe around that is by staying in linear time, doing things that are Saturnian, that are trackable.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. And, C, does that make sense to you as well?

C:                    Yeah. That sounds spot-on.

Jessica:            And here's the thing. You both have heavy Saturn stuff. You both have Saturn on angles. In other words, part of what draws you to each other and makes you able to be together for three-plus years and set the intention that you want to spend your lives together is that you have something inside of you that is heavy. And I don't have a negative connotation with heavy. I know a lot of people do, but I don't. But there's a weightiness to your individual natures. And because your partner also has it, there's a sense of trustworthiness, of, "I can belong, and I can build with this person because they're ultimately—they care about accountability."

D:                    Mm-hmm.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Yeah. So, C, in astrological terms, you are actually super connected on Saturn. And you're wanting to connect on Neptune, but that's not exactly where the vibes are vibing. And that's not a bad thing. But this is one of those things where—do you have lots of friends?

C:                    I wouldn't say so.

Jessica:            Yeah. So Mercury/Uranus conjunction craves lots of relationships. Now, I'm not talking about sexual relationships or romantic relationships. I'm like lots of friendships, lots of running into people stuff, like social connections. And a lot of times, people with this aspect actually have a lot of friends who live out of state, so you're on the phone all the time or you're texting all the time.

C:                    I do have a lot of long-distance friends.

Jessica:            I'm sure you do. Yeah. It's because being around people all the time is so taxing, but you love being in connection with people.

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            And what I'm kind of building towards is this part of you is really important for you to share with people in an intimate way, but that doesn't mean necessarily that it's important for you to share within your partnership because what you're wanting to do is resource yourself, and you are. And then you're doing it, and you're like, "Oh, D, hey, look. This is working for me. Come. Let me help you." But I don't know that it would—I mean, clearly, it's not exactly working for D. D is not like, "Oh, that sounds delicious. Let me eat that for dinner." Right? That's not what's happening.

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. So I want to say to you, C, or I guess I want to ask you, C, is it like a disappointment to think that D would be very different from you in this way or maybe not share this in the way that you would prefer?

C:                    I think, yeah, there is some piece of me that's like, "Oh, well, that's a bummer. This is a useful tool. It'd be cool if we both knew how to use it." But I don't think that it's something that would feel heavy to hold.

Jessica:            Yeah.

C:                    I think that it would mean that I'm very interested in D's question about, where is the communication inroads? Maybe in our composite chart or—because if I'm—

Jessica:            Yeah. Well, we're going to go to that in a second, for sure.

C:                    Okay.

Jessica:            I'm just going to say this. Listen. Energy work, boundary work, astrology—you're basically talking to my three favorite things in the whole, entire universe and my life's work. So I am a fan, and I am glad you're doing these things. And also, I want to hold space for not everybody's going to vibe with any of those things, let alone all of them.

And as I look at D's individual chart, somatic work, like locating emotions in body, practicing presence and accountability through presence—those things are—they're the same kind of yes that you get through energy work and boundary work in the way that you're getting it. And it's not exactly how you would enter, C, right? For you, the energy work is actually really necessary. But for D, the greatest entry point to a non-traumatic experience of spirituality is through somatic process. Does that track for you, D?

D:        Yes, like doing a thing, essentially—

Jessica:            Yeah.

D:        —being with a thing. Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And noticing it in your body, slowing down to notice where emotions are landing in your body. Right now, you're kind of feeling stuff in your stomach, eh?

D:                    Actually, I struggle with that a lot. I'm actively working in therapy to get better at that because I am not very good at knowing that, and I think that's trauma-based for me personally.

Jessica:            True talks. True talks. Okay. And this is exactly why I say this is your entry point. This is the work for you, to be able to slow down enough to notice what's happening inside of your body and, as you notice what's happening inside of your body, to practice curiosity so that you can figure out what you're actually feeling emotionally. That looks like it's the steps for you. And so going into an energy work process is probably not going to vibe for you because you're like, "What am I working with here? What is energy? Where is energy?"

                        So I think D's first step is actually finding emotions in body, finding sensations in body, because, D, when I was looking at you a moment ago, I saw the side of your stomach—do you notice sometimes your tummy kind of holds emotions?

D:                    Yeah, for sure.

Jessica:            Yeah. So I was just seeing it in the side. I was picking it up on the left side, but I get left and right wrong all the time, so I don't know if that's what it was. But the side of your stomach was kind of—not upset, but kind of activated a little bit. And you're a Double Cancer, Rising and Moon in Cancer. So tummy is the place for you. And so I want to just kind of, first of all, validate that I'm just seeing that you all are super different in this regard.

                        And then, also, I want to, before I move into the relationship chart, say to you, C, I think new friends are really important for you. And you're going through—so you have a little bit of an age gap. And, C, you're right now going through one of your midlife transits, or two of them. Girl, you're going through two of them, Pluto square Pluto, Neptune square Neptune. Your Uranus opposition is not for a minute. But these transits are driving you to have a greater need for a depth of connection and meaning. And I want to validate that. Those things are very real for you. And finding them in the relationship may be important, but I also want to point you towards friendships because I actually think that's a really important part of your life, not necessarily easy or always accessible, because you're a grown-ass adult and it's hard to make friends the older you get—

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            —but I think it's important for me to name that, okay? Now I'm going to go to your relationship chart, look at you two. The first thing I want to say is, when I looked at your relationship chart, I was like, "Okay. So were you friends first?"

D:                    Not really.

C:                    No.

Jessica:            No, did you meet and then date?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay, because you have a stellium in the seventh house, which is just like either you were best friends for 100 years and then you got together, or you met and you U-Hauled. There's just usually nothing in between with this kind of a chart. Was it U-Haul?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. It was. Mm-hmm. Respect. Okay. And do you want human babies?

C:                    No.

D:                    No.

Jessica:            Okay. Congratulations. I really think that's funny. It was a good reaction. I enjoyed it. Okay. So many things to say about this chart, but the first thing I want to say is you actually have really fun communication; do you not?

D:                    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You like talking to each other. You're interested in a lot of things. Your conversations are back and forth and back and forth. It's not like one person is doing all the talking.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Is that true, C?

C:                    [crosstalk].

Jessica:            Yeah? Both of you.

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. Great, great. That said, you have a Sun/Mars conjunction. Mars is also conjunct Venus. It's conjunct Mercury. So do you fight?

C:                    Yes.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Good. You get annoyed with each other.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            You should fight. And I'm not saying come to blows. I'm saying it's really important for your relationship that you fight in a way that is sometimes funny, sometimes obnoxious, and that you are kind of routinely clearing the air because you are really different from each other, and your differences are exciting, and they're dynamic, and they're interesting, and they're annoying.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And I don't have a negative association with that. I actually get worried when I see couples that don't fight, because I'm like, "Well, how are you going to fight? If you don't know how to fight, how do you fight?" And there is something else in your chart—it's called Moon opposite Pluto—that can incline the two of you as a team to not fight about the real shit, to hold on to things, which can lead to resentments and other similar problems.

                        And so the habit of arguing and just letting things come to the surface—I want to just say I know a lot of people will say, "Oh, no, that's not great." Fucking fabulous. Fucking fabulous. Learning how to fight kindly and to apologize when you're a jerk are really powerful skills in general and specifically in this relationship.

                        That said, when you, C, express some concern about communication, I can't help but wonder if that concern springs from talking about resentments or jealousies or that kind of a thing.

C:                    I think, definitely, there's a specific relationship rupture that we're in process repairing. And—

Jessica:            Say more. Is that another partner?

C:                    No, just between me and D, there was a moment of dishonesty. And then, as we were trying to figure out how to repair, reconnect, and build back, that was when I felt the most like, "Wow, it would be really helpful if we had a shared woo practice."

Jessica:            I see what you're saying, C. Okay. I'm going to—

C:                    And we have also already talked a lot about, how can we fight in a way that is almost like a game or like there's something playful about it so that it's not too heavy? Which I can get.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay.

C:                    So I'd love to hear more about that, too.

Jessica:            I've got lots of things to say.

C:                    Amazing.

Jessica:            So one is, when you are fighting and either you know you're being ridiculous but you can't fucking help it or you feel that the other person is being ridiculous but you are still fucking annoyed and you're engaging, come up with nicknames and call them to each other, something stupid. Now, you have to choose your own nickname or you have to consent to the nickname. Otherwise, it's going to feel like fuel on fire. But it has to be something stupid. There's a Portlandia episode about cacao is their safe word.

D:                    (laughs)

Jessica:            Do you know that stupid—

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            You know that. So it can be like cacao. You basically want to create a cacao, and you want to use that cacao in your relationship when you're fighting so that it's basically like a way of communicating, "I'm aware that something's amiss here." Sometimes what's happening is there's essentially—you're just in a mode. Sometimes what's happening, to your point, C, is that you're both energetically really sensitive, and so sometimes one of you or both of you will get slammed by energy from someone else or from something—it could be from the world—and then, because it's energy, it's not like a cat walked into the house and shit on your bed. It's not like a thing happened. So you start fighting with each other because you're the only people there. You're the only material thing happening kind of thing, you know?

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And so sometimes it's energy. In that case, C, in 2026, it's unrealistic that D is going to name it and clear it. It is possible that through the practice of you doing you, that D sees that it works and then finds her own way to practice it. But this is like a path you're already on.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And it's not like a starting point in this path. Do you know what I mean by how it's not a starting point?

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            It's kind of advanced. It's a little advanced.

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Not to be hierarchical about it, because it's not a hierarchical thing. So the first thing is you're going to throw in a cacao. You can come up with a few different code word, code name things—

C:                    Love it.

Jessica:            —and fuck with that. The other thing that I'm seeing—okay.  This relationship—you said you're dealing with a relationship issue with somebody else?

D:                    It is with ourselves. And I'm not sure if you talked about us being polyamorous—

Jessica:            No. It hasn't come up yet.

D:                    Okay. We gotta learn how to, you know, fight. That's eventually going to become something that is kind of prickly and things like that. And it definitely has been in the past here and there. But I think the bulk of it right now is between the two of us.

Jessica:            So it has something to do with navigating other people or other people's energies or other relationships?

D:                    No. No. Just within ours.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So it's nothing to do with polyamory; it's just context?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay, okay, okay, okay. I find the two of you to be very vague on this topic, so I'm going to press a little more to say give me an example of what we're fighting about or the most recent fight.

C:                    Yeah. Well, the thing that I was thinking of was that there was a little bit of a struggle with being fully honest about recreational drug use, and it felt like there was a big addiction moment, and there was some dishonesty that came along with it.

Jessica:            So D was using, and it felt like it was related to old addictions, or it just felt like it was addictive?

D:                    It was addictive. I mean, I've had substance abuse issues in the past that have just been related to stress, trauma, PTSD, different things like that.

Jessica:            Sure.

D:                    But this is just this situation in particular.

Jessica:            So this situation was separate—it wasn't the same as that old addiction stuff?

D:                    No.

Jessica:            Okay. And, D, you were not forthcoming. And, C, it was a problem.

C:                    Yes, but D was eventually forthcoming about it. I found out not because I discovered anything but because D did come and ask for help at some point and say, "Hey, I need you to know this."

Jessica:            And at what point? How long had it been?

D:                    Almost a year.

Jessica:            Oh. Damn. Okay. That's intense. And did you fight, or are you more questioning how to communicate about this?

C:                    We did fight about it.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

C:                    I don't know if we successfully were able to fight about it in ways that really provided the kind of relief that I have experienced in my family system that fighting can provide.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. So listen. Here's the thing. This Moon/Pluto opposition in your relationship chart—you both have abandonment issues, yeah?

C:                    Yes.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. That was the quickest you've both said yes in this whole conversation. Okay. Here's the thing about lying or omitting. The problem is—let's say I am a third in this relationship, and I am lying to the two of you, and I'm doing something else with someone else—whatever the fuck. Then what I'm doing is I am not allowing you to have access to me or this part of my life. It's an abandonment. That's the trouble. And listen. There's a lot of troubles with lying, and struggling with addiction stuff fucking sucks and is hard.

But I'm just focusing on the part that you're asking about, the communication part, is that when one of you gets activated around feeling abandoned, this is the biggest pain point in your relationship. It is where you are the least resilient as a team. So fighting about it would not help—I mean, it's necessary to an extent, but it wouldn't help.

So, D, is it under control, whatever that means at this time?

D:        Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. And, C, do you believe that to be true?

C:        Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. C, do you believe that if this happened again, that D would tell you about it swiftly?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            D, do you believe that?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. C, do you resent that D either didn't tell you sooner or that it happened at all?

C:                    Yes. There are times when I feel resentment. There are times when it feels more like deep worry that I was not co-creating a safe container.

Jessica:            So you feel it was your fault or responsibility why D didn't tell you?

C:                    Not that far.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay.

C:                    But I do think that there are maybe ways in which I can be giving too much advice and not [crosstalk]—

Jessica:            You're heavy-handed. You're heavy-handed.

C:                    I am. Big hands.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm so happy, so happy. D, do you agree with that?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. But, D, do you also agree that you probably wouldn't have told C anyways because you weren't super stoked on your own behavior?

D:                    That is 100 percent correct.

Jessica:            Correct. C, take no responsibility. Listen. You're heavy-handed. You gotta deal with that. That's real. You can be judgmental—also a true story, okay?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            However, D, something I see about you and addiction in general is you love being secretive about it. You don't. You feel ashamed. You fucking hate it. But you love it. It's like part of it for you. There's always a secrecy element to it for you, yes?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. C, I need you to hear that.

C:                    I hear that.

Jessica:            Okay. Good. And that's a concern. That's a red flag for you because—

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            —that means, if it happens again, there's no reason to really expect that D is going to be like, "Hey, by the way, I started using x again"—I didn't mean the drug X. I meant insert substance. Okay.

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Were there high-risk behaviors that you pursued when you were using this substance, D?

D:                    No.

Jessica:            Nothing that would put [crosstalk]—

D:                    Other than the substance itself.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Other than your own health, right?

D:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. And are you in any kind of program, like recovery program?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. C, do you feel good about that?

C:                    I don't feel like we've found something that I feel super confident in, and I think that that's a reflection on what the world has to offer—

Jessica:            Fair.

C:                    —in terms of, especially, recovery.

Jessica:            Fair, fair, fair. Here's the thing, okay? D, this is the first time in our conversation where I feel, ooh, you've put up your walls. Energetically, you're like, "Mmm. No. Mmm. No. Mmm." Does that make sense to you at all?

D:                    It does make sense.

Jessica:            This is not a criticism. We're just naming shit, okay? You are really protective of—it's not about the substance use, because the addiction was a substance, yeah?

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You're protective of your right to self-destruct or your right to do shit that you deem you want to do in a moment.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. And the risk of C or anyone else that you love or respect or otherwise telling you you can't, you shouldn't, or you should only do it in one kind of way, actually raises your fucking hackles.

D:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. C, is this news to you, or do you know?

C:                    No. I mean, I really appreciate you naming it this clearly, but this resonates with what I felt.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so what this means—and I want to be clear I don't know what the substance is, and I don't know what the context is. And I don't think that's relevant for this conversation. But what this means is that, D, you're really in a wet paint moment with your relationship to addiction. You can't actually make any promises because you're not in a place where you're feeling a sense of certainty around not only wanting to change your relationship to those substances but about life itself, like being in this meat suit, being in this life, how you live this fucking life. It's very intense and personal. But that is what I'm seeing. Does that track?

D:                    Yeah. I believe that.

Jessica:            Yeah. And the truth is, C, that is an abandonment of you. How do you trust somebody who's like, "Yeah. I'm in. I'm out. I don't know. Life is fucked. What?" How do you feel safe in that? And the answer is, whether or not you name it this way or you think of it this way, C, I think that on a meaningful level, part of why you're like, "I want D to learn these energetic practices and find these tools," is because they are life-affirming for you. And there's something really deep for D that is like, "I don't fucking want to affirm life." And that's scary. That's a scary thing to have somebody you're in love with and want to spend the whole of your life with to feel like.

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. And, D, are you hearing this?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            I'm going to press you again. Are you feeling it?

D:                    I need to sit and think. I haven't allowed myself to—I've been compartmentalizing a little bit to pay attention.

Jessica:            That's fair. That's fair. And also, that's your process, right? That's not just in this moment. This is—it's kind of your move.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            I do, D, want you to know that for all that C is saying, like, "Oh, I can be heavy-handed," or, "I can be advice-giving," and all this stuff, C just is fucking obsessed with you and loves you and wants you to be well. And there is a level on which you want nothing less, and then there's another level on which that's a lot to live up to for you.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And sometimes it does feel like pressure for you. And it's not like you're sitting around thinking, "Well, this feels like pressure," but you get this rebellious, defensive, self-sabotagey shit come up.

D:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so, C, I want to affirm that you cannot fix this for D. You can be curious. You can ask questions. You can ask if D wants advice and then offer it. But this is deep shit, right? And, D—

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            —the next decade of your life—because you're right now how old?

D:                    35.

Jessica:            35.

D:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. By your mid-40s, you need to have this stuff handled as possible, okay?

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Because it's going to get really—this part of your nature is going to be quite challenged. And so I want to invite you to really prioritize being curious about exploring, without judgment or punishment, this part of you that's like, "I don't even fucking know about life. What is the point? I don't know if"—this nihilism, essentially. I don't know if that's the right word, but that's what I'm using right now. To explore it and to work on being emotionally present within it so that you can be honest with yourself about the choices you want to make and hopefully make self-loving choices—this feels really important.

And coming back to this question, C, that you're asking about communication, you're in a bind because if you pressed as hard as I pressed in this conversation, you would probably be shutting D down. Does that feel correct, D?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so you're not bananas for being like, "Okay. Well, I'm not going to press that hard," because it's a really deep and important conversation, and it's one that you can ask D to have but D can only have within their capacity. And, D—

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            —expanding your capacity on this topic is really important for you and for your relationship because, C, you are going through this loss. It is what it is. And you can grieve and feel sad about it, but ultimately, you have a choice to make, which is around trust. This really isn't communication as much as trust. And D did break your trust for a year.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And you're allowed to be hurt, and you're allowed to be mad. And maybe, D—I'm sorry. I said that, and your energy system was like, "Woop. No. Don't be hurt. Don't be mad. No, no, no, no, no, no."

D:                    That's okay. Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            I understand you have a dynamic of, C, you're trying to protect D because you're concerned for D. Am I right about that?

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            And that's loving and good. And there has to be boundaries inside of that. And so you have your own spiritual practice for navigating those boundaries, but part of that is trusting D to prioritize doing the work so that she can meet you in the middle because you can't do that part, the meeting in the middle, because D moved away from the middle; you didn't.

C:                    Okay.

Jessica:            Does that make sense, what I'm saying?

C:                    It feels right in my body, but my brain hasn't quite caught up yet.

Jessica:            I can feel that you're like—there's something off. So I'm going to explain it, and then, D, I'm going to ask you how you feel. So pay attention, okay, with your feels. Pay attention with your feels.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            C, what I'm talking about is D was doing something for a year, and you didn't know. And it was a big part of D's life. And it took a lot of care and intention and planning to obscure it from you, yeah?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. That's lying. That's betrayal. That's abandonment. That sucks. And you—it's okay, D, because I'm not saying you're a bad person at all.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            I'm saying fucking marriage, am I right? You know, I mean, with a person, you know? What are you going to do? Honoring, loving, supporting, and caring for D cannot and should not come at the expense of naming reality and allowing yourself to have your lived experience, C.

C:                    I think I'm used to fighting really hard for my lived experience, and so I feel like a lot of my work has been trying to pull that back. And maybe I pulled a little bit too far.

Jessica:            So, first of all, I think that's—you're right about—you're 40-ish?

C:                    Yeah, 41.

Jessica:            Okay, 41. So you're right at that age where you're like, "Oh fuck. The pendulum swung too far." This is early 40s shit. This is midlife crisis shit. And also, let me go back to your individual birth chart, C. Yes, you have a Mars opposition to your Ascendant, a Saturn opposition to your Midheaven. You have a Mercury conjunction to your Uranus. In other words, yeah, you come on hot. You come on strong.

C:                    Mm-mm. Yes.

Jessica:            You got juj. You know what I mean?

C:                    Uh-huh.

Jessica:            But you also have a Sun/Neptune conjunction. And when you love, you love devotionally. And so, in your retelling of this story to yourself, notice how frequently you center D's experience, feelings, and needs over your own.

C:                    Oof.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so this is the thing that's really hard for people like us—I'm going to include myself in this—who are just like, "Rarara." We're loud. We're aggressive. We're the first to jump in the pool in a lot of ways. That doesn't mean that you haven't abandoned yourself in other ways. It doesn't mean that you hold yourself at the center. And that Neptune/Sun conjunction is that part of you that feels like, "I love D so much, and I see that D is going through something so real. I can't possibly center myself because that would be in some ways contradictory to what D needs. And I love D, and I want to be there for D. And therefore, I want to just focus on things from D's perspective."

                        And that's what gets you in trouble. That's where the boundaries are needed. And this is where you may want to communicate about this, and there's certainly a value in communicating about this. But you're looking for this balance point, like the center. And what happened, both for D, with D's life, and then in your relationship when you found out that you had missed out this very important thing and that you were lied to for a year—the center is not a good—it's not an easeful, balanced place. The center is restless and hurt and really vulnerable for both of you.

                        D didn't do this to hurt you. D didn't do this to fuck with you. This was not about you. And that doesn't mean that it also wasn't completely about you and it didn't fuck with you and it didn't hurt you. These things can be true at once, and being able to hold that messiness is really fucking hard. And, D, you have a lot of support with the addiction stuff or a little support with the addiction stuff?

D:                    A little support with the addiction stuff. But I feel like I'm doing good work with what I have right now.

Jessica:            Okay. And you're not an AA person?

D:                    There are some other things that are close to that.

Jessica:            Okay, so peer-based, somewhat social—

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. And that works for you?

D:                    I need to find something new. It's not working like it was when I first started this work several months ago. So now is the time to find something that's more peer-to-peer that's a little different from that particular dynamic.

Jessica:            Yeah. Honestly, I'm really glad to hear you say that, because I do see you are not controlling in the way that most people think of controlling when they hear the word "controlling." You're controlling of yourself, and you're so pleasant about it, nobody knows that you're being controlling most of the time. Sometimes everybody knows, but nobody knows in this context. You just get pulled into yourself, yeah?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Listen. There's lots of fucking problems with AA, obviously. I don't need to tell you that. But the thing that I like about AA is that it's a structure and there's so much accountability, and it's a long-term process. And it's free, of course. So I'm just going to throw that in the mix, a vote for anything that will give you those things, because I think that you can be accountable to steps and a process even when you don't want to be accountable to yourself or a person.

D:                    Yeah. Yeah. And I would agree with that.

Jessica:            Yeah. And see, you're allowed to have boundaries and needs around this. Have you expressed them to D at all?

D:                    Yes. There were several things that I felt like I would need, like therapy, some type of addiction support, just tools that I felt like we—this should be a sign we need to get proactive about in our relationship. So there was some of that. But the addiction support has been the hardest thing to negotiate boundaries around. I think that there's a lot that's really damaging about how we think and talk about addiction, and yeah, it is really hard to find something other than AA.

Jessica:            Yeah, it is. And what's your problem with AA, D?

D:                    I do SMART Recovery. I—years ago, AA, but SMART Recovery is a nondenominational—

Jessica:            Ah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

D:                    It's secular, so—

Jessica:            It's without God.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            There are AA meetings that are secular. They have atheist AA and all that kind of shit. But yeah. That's fair. I'm going to advise you, C, to cultivate a list of questions like, "Do you want to be sober? What is your definition of sober? How do you feel about x? What are you doing about y?" Just a list of questions. And then you and D can make an agreement about when you're going to talk because, D, it sounds like you're really good at being like, "I don't want to talk about it now," or, "Yes, I can talk about it now." Is that correct? Yeah?

D:                    Mm-hmm. That's correct.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. And then, C, no more than three questions in a conversation.

C:                    Oof.

Jessica:            Ideally, you're going to do one question in a conversation. Who oofed? I heard an oof.

C:                    Me. It was me.

Jessica:            C. Okay. C, you oofed. Okay. This will only work if, D, you commit to the process of being able to do this once a week, or if the conversation you had on Monday wasn't that intense for the two of you, then you can do it twice a week. The reason why I'm encouraging this in this way is because, C, your capacity—fucking endless. Am I right?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            You could have a 12-hour reading and be like, "Couldn't we talk about this?" But D is clear. "Okay. That's fucking a lot. Let's stop here." So you have really different capacities in this way. Because what the two of you are communicating about is a really deep struggle that D has with herself, you have to move at the pace of D—not at your own expense. The pace of D might be talk about it once a month, if we're being honest. Am I right, D?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Uh-huh. So I'm not talking about completely at the pace of D. But it's kind of requiring D to step outside of capacity, push capacity, but it's not shoving your capacity down D's throat, either. You're not going to get satisfactory conversations. If you've already been trying to talk about it more frequently, you already know this, right?

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You're not getting more satisfactory conversations because D is not able to really meet you in the conversation. And what you want is substance more than words.

C:                    Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. So, related to that, D, my hope is that you do prioritize getting more of that addiction-related support, and also, hopefully your therapy includes somatic process. And you may talk to your shrink and be like, "Hey, what's somatics? How can we bring more awareness of what's happening in my body as we're feeling feelings?"

D:                    Yeah, we're already working on it.

Jessica:            Fabulous. Fucking fabulous. The things you're going through, C, are really hard. Your midlife crisis transits, specifically, I'm referring to. And Pluto is coming for your Moon real soon. It's at 6 degrees. It's squaring itself. Neptune is squaring itself. And so the intensity of your emotions is very real, and part of what you're being challenged to do is to figure out how to navigate your intensity without either going all the way on or all the way off. So some of this pattern of what's happening with you and D probably triggers something from your own childhood.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And you know exactly what it is. Okay. Great. This is Pluto square Pluto. And what you want to remember is that you have agency. You have choice, not just around what you say or what you ask for, but also around how you process your emotions. And your spirituality is a part of that, but part of it for you is also just giving yourself the fucking grace to have really intense emotions—Pluto/Moon square emotions, really intense emotions. And some of that you do in private, and some of that you do in private and then you wish you could share it. But you actually tend to do really intense emotions in private, eh?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Giving yourself space for that and then challenging yourself to figure out what you need, not from other people, but what you need, and then you can figure out what you need from other people after you figure out what you need for yourself. And I will say one more thing here. Abandonment and coercion are your biggest problems. A feeling of, "I can't allow for playfulness and fun to occur because I can't trust you," is a risk in your relationship if there's a sense of either abandonment or resentments. Does that track for the two of you?

D:                    Yeah.

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            And so I want to be really clear this is not a good guy/bad guy thing. It's not like one person did something wrong and the other person did something right. This is how it is to be in a serious relationship with a human. Shit happens. Life happens. And it's how honest you can be with yourself and then with your partner that really determines where you go from here. So I want to just shut my fucking mouth for a second and check in and see, have we addressed the stuff that's important? Do you have any kind of remaining questions?

C:                    It really hit me in the chest and it felt very resonant when you said that D is protective of her right to self-destruct. And I think I feel that, and that just feels like such a hard thing to navigate, how to move within that.

Jessica:            Yeah. It is. D, are you able to hear that, or are you past capacity?

D:                    No, I can hear that.  I don't know how to explain it, but it is a truth as well.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. It is a truth. You know, everybody lies about life, okay? Everybody fucking lies. For a lot of us, choosing to be alive never happens. For a lot of us, we only learn how to choose to be alive at a later age than one would expect. And I don't think we talk about that enough. I really just don't. And that doesn't mean that you don't try hard and work hard on being a person and all that kind of stuff. But for some of us, especially if you have a trauma history, it's really fucking hard to choose to be alive.

                        And this is really a crux what, D, I think this is about for you, being here in this meat suit, this life, this material—this mortal coil, as they say. And that is bigger than you, C. It's so much bigger than you. And also, it's part of what you love about D, is their intensity and complexity.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And the same part of D that's just as fucking ambiguous at times about being here is the same part that has such a profound capacity for going there in life. It's paradoxical, right? It's like D's capacity to have real experiences and do the work and their drive to get the fuck out of here at any cost—it comes from the same place.

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And, C, I want to just advise you to have the feelings you have about it and to figure out what questions you want to ask D about it and, if you figure out you have certain needs, to communicate those because being in relationship with somebody else means accepting them. And that doesn't mean you consent to everything, but you have to accept before you can decide whether or not you consent.

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            And that's really scary to you because you don't want to consider anything that could potentially lead you to not consenting, because if we're being honest, D, this is not a place you're very flexible or collaborative.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. True story 2026. Okay. So I don't know if that exactly speaks to your question, C.

C:                    Mm-hmm. It does.

Jessica:            It does?

C:                    It does.

Jessica:            Okay.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And was there anything else that was left kind of hanging?

C:                    At some point, you mentioned that I'm trying to connect to D through my Neptune—

Jessica:            Yeah.

C:                    —and that it might be—where we are connected is much more Saturn.

Jessica:            That's kind of what I was saying and kind of not what I was saying.

C:                    Okay.

Jessica:            I was saying when I look at what you have in common, it's Saturn. You have your Saturns in common, which is why you live well together in many ways.

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            And you are really good at life-planning shit together, right?

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Because you connect on Saturn. You have a copacetic relationship to the idea of responsibility and accountability and family and aging and all this kind of shit—the system, even. But you are a Sun/Neptune baby, and that means you are devotional in the way you love. Think about it. You're in your early 40s. How many times in your romantic life historically have you thought you were doing one thing, but then when you looked back at the relationship, you were like, "Oh. I was centering their feelings and their needs and their experience over my own"?

C:                    It's a lot.

Jessica:            A lot of the fucking time. That's because you're a Sun/Neptune baby. And so it's not that you're connecting with D through Neptune. It's that you are Neptune. And so you have this devotional nature. There's so much beauty in that, and it's such a soft place for D to land. Doesn't need to change. Also, devoting yourself to someone else at your own expense is not devotion. It's self-sacrifice. You don't want to be a fucking martyr. You want to be a lover. And that takes boundaries, and you're already engaged in the process of boundaries

I just don't know if you're engaged in this moment enough with validating your own emotions because some of the emotions you have in your relationship are fucked up, and they've got nowhere to go. And so you, in your Capricorn wisdom, are like, "Well, if there's nothing I can do about it, then I just won't feel it." It's Capricorn wisdom. It's terrible logic, but it makes sense to us, right? If there's nothing to do about it, then why feel it? And the reason why is because you feel your feelings because they're your fucking feelings. That's the move.

And you've got to trust D to be able to stay present while you feel your fucking feelings. And the truth is, yeah, D doesn't want to do that. D would rather that you keep it together and do what you're doing, if I'm being honest. I mean, I can see this as clear as day. You chose to be in a relationship, D, with somebody who treats you with a lot of respect. And part of that, I think you have known, is that you have to choose to be here in new ways and show up in this relationship in new ways.

D:        Yeah. I would definitely say that. Yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. And so, on the good days, that's fucking awesome, and you have a sweet home and everyone is jealous of your cool relationship. And on the shitty days, C needs you to evolve in ways that are genuinely hard for you and that you have ambiguity about whether or not you even want to fucking do. But when you chose this relationship, you chose a life. And you actually really like this life. I mean, life is fucked up, and I'm not trying to tell you love life. But you do love this life.

D:                    I do.

Jessica:            Yeah. And that puts you in the fucked-up position of having to do emotional, psychological, spiritual work on yourself that is fucking hard.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            That's where you are. And it's okay that you have ambiguity about it. It's okay that you partially don't want to do the work and go in and out of being motivated. And also, you have choices to make, and your choices have consequences. They're both true, right?

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Now, D, I want to hold space—do you have any questions?

D:                    Yeah. I just had one question, which is how I can come further to the center.

Jessica:            That's a great question. Good job. Multiple points. Okay—not that we're collecting points. We're not collecting points, but I just wanted to affirm you in a very Saturnian way. Okay. Okay. And, C, I want you to affirm whether or not I'm going to nail this or not, okay?

C:                    Okay.

Jessica:            Meeting in the center means, in part, you reporting to C, without prompting, where you're at in your thinking and feeling with your relationship to addiction stuff. Am I right about that, C?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            So not needing prompting, sharing. That's not your fucking happy place; am I right, D?

D:                    You are 1,000 percent right.

Jessica:            Okay. So we started with something heavy. A piece of advice for that—put a little alarm in your phone. Download a song or a sound that is soothing to you, an alarm in your phone to once a week—so you can schedule it for Tuesdays or whatever the fuck—to find something to say about where you're at. And that something could be, "I haven't been able to really think about it this week, but I wanted to let you know where I was at." You're allowed to do that. Does that seem doable?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. The other thing is stick to your multiple therapies, so your substance stuff and your one-on-one therapy, without prompting or maintenance from C. Does that also, C, feel like an important middle ground thing?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yes. Okay.

C:                    Very yes.

Jessica:            Very yes. Okay. D, did you hear that very yes?

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You already knew all this shit, right? This is—you already knew this?

D:                    Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. Okay. Cool. And the third thing is practice noticing when you get overwhelmed by C's feelings and you shut down, and see if you can practice just being present for C's feelings without having to apologize or feel terrible or any of it, but instead to just hold—make yourself a safe place for C to emote. Does that track, C, as a need?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. D, does that make sense as an instruction?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Those three things are exceptionally hard, and they're also pretty simple. And so, if you can turn them into behavioral habits, you'll be able to do it. That's actually a really great thing for you, D. You're really good at developing habits. You're slow but good at it, right?

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So, if you make the commitment to setting the alarm and then doing the fucking thing and setting the alarm and doing the thing, you might hate it, and you might forget, and you might fuck off of it or whatever here and there. But over time, like over the course of many, many months, it will become a habit for you. And you're good with habits. And so that is like an untapped superpower you have. And I'm going to say untapped because I'm assuming it's untapped because of your age.

D:                    It might be lightly tapped [crosstalk].

Jessica:            Lightly tapped. Fabulous. So apply it to challenging relationship dynamics and even to dealing with addiction stuff, in particular engaging with the emotions that are underpinning addictive behaviors.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Create habits.

D:                    Yep, that—we're in it.

Jessica:            You're in it. That's exactly what you're doing with your shrink, yeah?

D:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Great. This will work for you. You've got a real solid Moon/Saturn opposition. You're really good at habits, and then you break them. Every once in a while, you completely fuck off, and then you come back, right?

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And every time you come back, you're a little stronger. That's that Moon/Saturn opposition. That's what it does. Okay. Did I answer that question, D?

D:                    Yes. Thank you.

Jessica:            Okay. It is my pleasure. We've gotten to a lot of really good stuff. And, D, you named your capacity a while ago. And what we have done here today is, C, what I don't want you to do with D, but I've done it because we're doing a reading, right? So what I want to say is D will name her capacity because you do it in conversation and in processing, right, when you're talking about shit?

D:                    Mm-hmm.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Now, D, sometimes you do it to control the situation so that you don't get triggered, so that you don't have to stay in something hard. True?

D:                    Sometimes, yes.

Jessica:            Sometimes, yes. C, you knew that.

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So, in those moments, name it. And maybe instead of saying, "I feel like you're at just slamming on the brakes so that you don't have to talk about this," you can say when you know that's happening, "Can I ask you to just stay with this for a little longer?" because sometimes D can stay with it longer. And then sometimes what's more important, D, is that you say, "I'm at my capacity. I'm going to promise you that we're going to talk about it again," and then give C a time and day. Can you do that? Is that in your nature to do?

D:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay.

D:                    It's not in my nature, but I can do it.

Jessica:            But you can do it. Okay. Great. Great, because, C, that would really help you, eh, if D's like, "I can't talk about it anymore," if she was also like, "But tomorrow, after dinner, let's sit down and talk about it"?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            That would help. Okay. Great. And then what you can do in the space in between those two conversations, C, is notice how much of your thinking returns to D, what D is thinking, what D is feeling, what D is going to say, what D needs. And rein your shit in and focus on you. What are you thinking? What are you needing? What are you feeling?

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Because you can't—it doesn't matter how insightful you are. I speak as an astrologer and a psychic. As insightful as you want to be, D is who D is who D is. And you being aware doesn't help D, actually. Be aware about yourself. That helps you, which by osmosis helps D in a way that trying to get ahead of D, figure it out, doesn't help either of you, actually. It's like an old coping mechanism from your childhood.

C:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to re-create your childhood in this partnership. Neither of you do.

D:                    No.

Jessica:            And right now, you're both at crossroads with kind of unconscious behaviors that emulate childhood shit, right?

C:                    Yes.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so breaking childhood patterns, essentially breaking ancestral patterns, is the most painful stuff because it's not just your psychology. It's this feeling of inevitability and, "If I change and if I'm different, then I'll be alone. Then I'll be out in the universe alone." It's this feeling that humans have. Not everybody names it that way, but that tends to be what happens. And so a lot of what the two of you are going through separately is existential, like very spiritual, very existential. Call it what you will.

                        And so the more space you can hold for your own emotions and for your partner to have emotions that you don't have to fix or do something about, the more space there will be in this relationship for the two of you to not play the role of the other's parent, the other's oppressor, the other's savior. You can really meet in the middle and co-create something that you want to grow old in together, which is kind of the fucking move, right?

C:                    Oh yeah.

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. Good. Good. Okay. Just one more thing. When we get off the call, you all are in the same house. Is your instinct to spend time alone for a minute or to go into the room and talk about it?

C:                    For me, right now, it would be to go into the room and talk about it.

Jessica:            How about you, D?

D:                    I can talk about it.

Jessica:            That's exactly what I thought we were going to talk about, and that is why I'm bringing it up.

D:                    I was not going to hole away, but I do feel—

Jessica:            You want to.

D:                    —over—my body wants to. I don't want to.

Jessica:            Yes. Yes.

D:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. That's great. That's great. And I'll say this. You and your body—you're kind of a package, yeah?

D:                    Yeah.

Jessica:            So you want to, and there's part of you that's open not to, but you want to. And you don't have to separate out parts of yourself to justify some of your feelings, D. For whatever it's worth, different people are different. And so I wonder, D, if I can give you another piece of homework. And, C, this is kind of homework for you, too. D, you love music?

D:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. I'm going to give you this homework. We get off the call. Three songs in headphones very fucking loud. If you want to move your bones—you know what I mean? If you want to dance in your room alone, fabulous. Do something where you are shaking your system and being sensory overwhelm in a positive, self-directive way. Does that make sense?

D:                    Yes, it does.

Jessica:            Okay. C, you are going to give D the space to listen to three songs. Now, D, do this in good faith. I'm not talking about ten-minute songs.

D:                    (laughs)

Jessica:            Okay? Don't play this fucking shit here. You know what I mean.

D:                    Pink Floyd.

Jessica:            Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking. Okay. Don't do that. So we're saying this is 20, 30 minutes max. 20, 30 minutes max, right? C, do you feel like you can hold for that long?

C:                    Yes.

Jessica:            Especially because you're being told this is the limit, right? You're being given a parameter.

C:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. So, in that time, C, do something life-affirming. Maybe write in a journal about how you feel about what came up for you. Do you have any gardening projects? Are you a gardener?

C:                    Yes. I've neglected them lately.

Jessica:            Okay. Put your hands in some fucking dirt. Water some plants, that kind of thing. That could really work for you. You could also listen to music. You don't need it, but D does need it in order to meet you. So, D, once you have shaken those bones and listened to music, meet C. Don't tolerate the conversation. Meet C. That's your assignment. You don't have to—this is not a perfectionist assignment, but that's the assignment. And if this works, then you might be able to use this as a template of, okay, there was an intense experience. Maybe, D, you need your three songs and to shake your bones before the two of you shift gears or talk about it again or whatever.

D:                    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay?

D:                    Okay.

Jessica:            All right. We did it.

C:                    We did it. Oh my God. Thank you so much, Jessica.

Jessica:            So my pleasure.

C:                    This was wonderful, and I feel like we're going to come back to this and listen to it and learn from it again and again.

Jessica:            Yay. Thank you.