February 18, 2026
603: Activation or Avoidance?
Listen
Read
Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.
Jessica: B. Gayle, welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?
B. Gayle: Jessica, I would love a reading about my pattern of emotional activation regarding my marriage and my personal autonomy and space. I'm curious if I'm experiencing a deep emotional wound or avoiding the obvious, because I know I can do that sometimes. Thank you so much.
Jessica: Okay. We're going to pull up your chart in a minute, but when you say avoiding the obvious, what would the obvious be?
B. Gayle: The obvious, to me, would be that thing that's, like, red flag staring right in your face that everybody else can see, and it's like, "Oh, hey, girl."
Jessica: I see. So you don't mean something specific that's in your mind. You're just like, "Am I missing the obvious thing?"
B. Gayle: Yes.
Jessica: I got it. Okay. I have so much to say in advance. Okay. Let's pull up your chart. Hold on. Hold on. So we are looking at your birth chart. You were born February 25th, '87, 12:26 a.m. in Portsmouth, Virginia. And there's so many layers of how I immediately want to respond to your question, but have you been feeling more activated in the last year, approximately? Or is this like a chronic issue?
B. Gayle: It feels chronic to me.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: Yet the last year has been, yeah, at least times two.
Jessica: Okay. Excellent. And then how long have you been in your relationship?
B. Gayle: We've been dating for 19 years, married for 12.
Jessica: 19 years.
B. Gayle: Insane.
Jessica: It's like your whole adult life.
B. Gayle: I was 19 years old, so—
Jessica: Wow.
B. Gayle: —literally my entire adult life.
Jessica: Wow. And is he older than you?
B. Gayle: Yeah, by three years.
Jessica: Okay. Not significantly.
B. Gayle: Yeah, same age.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Same age. Great, great, great. Okay. We're going to talk about your marriage as much as you want to in a minute.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: But first we're going to start with this. Look at you. You're a damn Pisces. You're so sweet. You don't want to be aggressive. You don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. You're sensey. You feel everything. And then, again, look at you. Your Moon is conjunct Venus. I don't care that it's in Capricorn. Your Moon is conjunct Venus. You don't ever want to be the bad guy. You don't like being the villain. You don't like being inconvenient. You don't like being high maintenance. And you have a tender heart. Tracks?
B. Gayle: It does track. Yeah.
Jessica: Tracks. Okay. Here's the big, fat "but." It's such a big "but."
B. Gayle: It's so big.
Jessica: It's such a big "but." Okay. You've got a Mars in Taurus, so it's like, "My way is the way," and it's opposite fucking Pluto. And so your needs are constantly in a battle with your survival mechanisms. Yeah.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And that's not all. And then you have Sagittarius intercepted your first house with a tight enough Saturn/Uranus conjunction right there in that first house. And what this means in English is it's really hard for you to figure out, "Do I need more space or less space? Do I need to be more free, or do I need to have responsibilities?" This is a chronic struggle for you. And you really, really, really want to be free, but you also really, really, really want to be connected. And so it's just—there's an element of this being your shit that I think we have to talk about. There's an element of this being like—oh my God. You know this is from your childhood, right? You know—
B. Gayle: 100 percent.
Jessica: —so clearly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like in the book of your life, you'd be like, "But that's obvious. That makes sense that that would happen." That is really clear. And then there's also, in order to figure out how to navigate this stuff, whether we're talking about activation in your marriage or we're talking about navigating the limits and boundaries around freedom and safety and obligation, it requires for you to have space. And you are not great at giving yourself space. Now, I know you have human children, which is also—nobody gets a lot of space when they have human children.
So we're going to talk about all this in a moment, but before we do, I have one more really important thing to share, which is that for the last year, Pluto has been squaring your Mars. And so this part of your personality which learned at a very young age that you had to be assertive and dogged about your needs—otherwise, they would be kind of abused or taken advantage of, and at the same time, if you stood up for yourself, there would be consequences—you learned these contradicting, "What the fuck am I supposed to do with this?" kind of lesson.
B. Gayle: That tracks.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. And so, in the last year, Pluto by transit has been squaring your Mars, reinvigorating these issues. So you're having power struggles with people. Your level of activation—which is usually, on a scale from 1 to 10, like at an 8 anyways. But you're like 12. You're 12. You're 12. You're 12.
B. Gayle: Oh my gosh.
Jessica: And so it's a lot going on. So I want to just really validate that.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: But we're going to get to some shit, so don't worry. I'm going to have you ground me into—we can start with the marriage, or if there's another relationship or another situation going on that you would want me to look at—
B. Gayle: I really do. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: Thank you for putting that out. I appreciate that.
Jessica: Yes, yes, yes. My pleasure. So what is it?
B. Gayle: So I have a friendship, and there is a cycle happening, right? There's a pattern. And I'm like, okay, is that me? And it feels like—this is a sister. This is family.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
B. Gayle: I mean, literally living together.
Jessica: Oh, wow.
B. Gayle: [crosstalk] love each other—I mean, not technically, but almost.
Jessica: But spending a lot of time together.
B. Gayle: A lot of time.
Jessica: Okay. Mm-hmm.
B. Gayle: We've literally merged. And it's like, like I said, family. And then there's a rupture, and then there's a ghosting or a cutoff that I am left, again, like, did I miss something? Was it that obvious? Was I avoiding having these hard conversations, and then once we did have a hard conversation, it's like, "Oh no. Gotta get out of here"? She is, like you said, a 12.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: And that's what I'm asking myself, like, am I scary? Am I just—
Jessica: Okay. I have answers. Yeah, you're, for sure, scary. And also, no, you're not scary. They're both true.
B. Gayle: Fair.
Jessica: Yeah. The truth of the matter is you're completely reasonable and diplomatic except for when you're not. I mean, me and you both. I mean, that's life, right? I'm going to have you say her full name out loud.
B. Gayle: Yes. [redacted].
Jessica: That's exactly what I thought I'd see. Is your mother still alive?
B. Gayle: She is.
Jessica: Are you in relationship with her?
B. Gayle: I am.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. Do you see any similarities between your dynamic—
B. Gayle: I never.
Jessica: —with your bestie and your mom?
B. Gayle: Never.
Jessica: Interesting.
B. Gayle: Whoa.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. Are you seeing them in this moment?
B. Gayle: No.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: I mean, I'm taken aback.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: I see it with my partner. I'm, like, okay, tracking—I can connect those dots. But with her? Not one.
Jessica: So you and the bestie were, like you said, like sisters. You saw things in the same way. You were on the same path. And then, from what I'm seeing, something happened with her in her life—
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: —that changed her. Is that correct?
B. Gayle: That tracks. Yeah. That's correct.
Jessica: Yeah. And then, instead of her saying to you, "I need you to be different in this way," or, "I have these new needs," she got a little weird and then disappeared.
B. Gayle: Poof.
Jessica: Okay. Have you seen your mom do this? Let me reframe this. With your mom, does she—and I'm not looking at her energetically yet. I'm looking at it through you. Does she say to you, "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes," and then, "No, no, no, no, no," like hot and cold, all in, all out kind of energy?
B. Gayle: I've been so distant that I would have to go back to childhood, I feel like.
Jessica: Yep.
B. Gayle: Not recent—oh, childhood?
Jessica: Go to childhood. Yep.
B. Gayle: Oh, for sure.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: Oh yeah.
Jessica: Okay. So this bestie is what every single one of our friends/besties are, basically. She feels like family because she feels familiar. And what feels familiar to you and to everyone else is family. And for those of us who have fucked-up family situations, that's not the best news in the world, right? And so this pattern with your bestie—it didn't have to come up before because you were kind of like Mini-Mes to each other. You were like, "Yes, girl. Yes, girl. Yes, girl. Yes, girl." And then the first time that there was something substantial where she was just like, "You don't get it," instead of her giving you a chance—and she feels she gave you a chance, by the way. She feels she communicated. I don't think she communicated. I think she expected you to just psychically get her because you had psychically gotten her before.
B. Gayle: Yeah. I could see that.
Jessica: And this is the thing—the pattern in your childhood of being beloved by a female family member and then, all of a sudden, for fucking mysterious reasons that you couldn't exactly track without having to really think about it, having some sort of rug pulled out from underneath you, some sort of terrible consequence that hurt your feelings but that you were just like, "I don't even know where to begin with this."
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica: And so the thing about this is that I'm pulling out the pattern from your childhood; this is not to say that something was your fault or wasn't your fault or was her fault or wasn't her fault. It's about recognizing, okay, well, why is this shit happening now? Why does this pattern play out in your life where somebody is fucking in and everything's glorious, and then just out of nowhere, you're like, "Wait. What? Like, what?" It's a childhood pattern for you.
B. Gayle: Yeah. That tracks.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: It also involved money, just to—like, that has been a—I can't help but notice, okay, I don't know if that made it more weird. [crosstalk]—
Jessica: So was it money between the two of you, or something happened—
B. Gayle: Yes.
Jessica: Oh. I see.
B. Gayle: Yep. Yep.
Jessica: Did you give her money, and then she was weird about it?
B. Gayle: No. It was an exchange of service where it was, just like you said before, like, "Yes. I got this. No problem. We're sharing. It's cool. Take your time." And then, when it came time—like, some things happened; really big things happened for her. And when it came time for that project to be over, we were just talking about what the money looked like. It was wild what she was asking for. And I was like, "Where did this come from? What happened? This number is way off of what we ever agreed upon. Where do you think I'm going to get this from?" And we had a little bit of back and forth that felt like our first thing, you know, that first little, like—
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
B. Gayle: —"This is a hard conversation, but we're here." And we were doing it. We were prepared for this. We talk about this. We got this. And we cheered each other on to say, it's okay, it's okay. And then something else happened right after that. I think that was okay. And then that was like, "Nope. None of it's okay. I'm out of here." And I'm like, I don't know if it started to erode with the money situation and then this last thing was just too much or if it was—
Jessica: Is she partnered?
B. Gayle: She's not.
Jessica: Yeah. And does she have kids?
B. Gayle: She has a kid. Yeah.
Jessica: Mm-hmm, because I'm seeing that there's stuff going on for her around her love life, and it might just be she's sad she doesn't have one. It might be she's not really in a relationship, and she's not really happy with what's happening. And the pressures of parenting—and that has nothing to do with you, but it has everything to do with her and her level of activation and her capacity. And I think you've seen her do this with other people.
B. Gayle: Oh my God.
Jessica: You know what I mean, right?
B. Gayle: Yes.
Jessica: She's completely reasonable and fair, and then all of a sudden, one day, she's so unreasonable and you cannot talk to her.
B. Gayle: Yeah. I've seen it with other people, so of course, I knew I was—you know, I'm not above that.
Jessica: Totally.
B. Gayle: I just hoped that it wouldn't last so long and that we would just be able to bring it to the table, cry together—you know, I love a good cry. Like, let's do it. But that has not happened. So I'm coming to the terms of, oh, okay, this is for real.
Jessica: Yeah. It is for real. And she doesn't forgive anyone. She gets dramatic and burns bridges. Haven't you seen that?
B. Gayle: That tracks. Yeah.
Jessica: So the thing that you have a hard time with is you see evidence of how people close to you treat others, and you, in classic Pisces fashion, tell yourself, "Yeah, that's not a great quality, but it's not going to happen to me because we're special," right?
B. Gayle: This is what I'm talking about. Oh my goodness. Is it so obvious that it's painful, but it's also like—
Jessica: It's not obvious when you're in it.
B. Gayle: We did our work. I thought we had built this beautiful foundation and I was—
Jessica: You had. You had. But you have a values system around staying and doing the work. Now, could we critique your willingness to stay and do the work when all signs point to get the fuck out; a building is burning? Yes.
B. Gayle: I'm in that burning building.
Jessica: I see. I see you, and we're going to get there. But I do think that the two of you, in part, worked because where she was like, "I don't know," you were like, "I do know. We'll do this." And she was like, "Okay." So you have this thing where you have all this excitement and you have all this energy, and you're like, "I'm going to help us cross this bridge." And then your friendships are great or your love life is great, and everyone's like, "I'll follow you on the bridge," until their bag gets just a little too heavy for them or they get a pebble in their shoe, and then they're like, "I'm not doing this shit anymore. You made me do this shit." And it gets really messy really quickly.
And in regards to this friendship, what I'm going to say is there is a world in which the two of you could talk it through, reconnect, but she'll do it again because this is who she is at this time, and she is not doing the deep psychological and emotional work one would need to do to break this pattern because she does this with everyone who gets close enough.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: It looks like she even does it with her kid.
B. Gayle: Yeah. I mean, really, I've seen it. I've noticed it.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
B. Gayle: I'm aware of it.
Jessica: It's just heartbreaking when someone does it to you.
B. Gayle: I mean…
Jessica: I have gone through this myself. I know a lot of people who go through it. It's like you see your friends burning bridges, and you're like, yeah, but that's not the same bridge as our bridge. Our bridge is special.
B. Gayle: Our bridge is special. Yes.
Jessica: And your bridge was special. Your friendship was special. And as painful as it is to go through what you're going through, honestly, it was an inevitability. And now that you're here, you have choices to make. The thing about this pattern for you—you love instant intimacy. You're like, "Let's get in there. Let's get close. Oh my God. I knew it. Yes, yes, yes." Okay. Okay. Yeah. I got it. Okay. So the problem with that is that you forge these really gorgeous connections with people with a foundation of a lot of assumptions or ignoring a lot of things or just not knowing a lot of things.
B. Gayle: Yeah. We—yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: You went from "I don't know you" to besties, and from besties to sisters.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And the truth is that when you do that, the first earthquake—okay. So I lived in the Bay Area for a really long time. And the thing about earthquakes is there are certain kinds of land you can build on that—one little tremor, and everything collapses. And there's other kinds of land you can build on that—a big tremor, and you're likely to be fine. You keep on building relationships on—I don't know exactly what the land is, and it wouldn't matter because you don't—
B. Gayle: I hear you.
Jessica: —[crosstalk] the metaphor. But you get the metaphor. Okay. Good.
B. Gayle: I'm loving that metaphor.
Jessica: Okay. Great. Great, great, great. Capricorn Moon. You can handle it. And Taurus Mars, right? So all of this to say you can mourn this friendship, and obviously, you should. But the real takeaway, my hope for you, is the next close friendship that you build with a friend, slow it. Slow it down. You don't know how to date; you only know how to get married. Right? This is what you're doing in your friendships. And so my advice is—
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. So you become friends with somebody, and you want to text them daily or 15 times a day. So cut it by 50 percent.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Whatever your instinct is, cut it by 50 percent.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Do more things that force getting-to-know-you conversations because the older you get, the harder it is to be like, "Where are you from?" You know? Really getting to know who somebody is. We just kind of get into activity partners—
B. Gayle: Yes.
Jessica: —and build on top of that. And you have really intense abandonment issues. Somebody ghosting you is like an act of violence for you. It's fucking awful.
B. Gayle: The places my mind has gone, I'm like, "You know what?" I'm bringing myself back in. I'm talking myself out of doing, yeah, things that make me feel like retaliation, resentful—
Jessica: Yep. Yep.
B. Gayle: —I mean, petty, mean stuff that's like no. No, no, no, no. You're grown. You don't have to do that.
Jessica: It's not who you are, but the survival mechanisms that you learned when you were little was, "Fight like with like. You hurt me; I hurt you."
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: You get in and you earn my trust, and then you destroy my trust? Fine. I'll destroy your trust.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: It's a survival instinct that you have. And I want to say—okay. The fact that you're not acting on it is way more important than you might think it is. Because of the transit you're going through, your behavior at this time will act as a boomerang. It'll come back at you. So recognizing that those feelings are valid as feelings and not valid as motivations or actions is a way of giving yourself permission to have petty, fucked-up, resentful thoughts and feelings and to not act on them. There's nothing wrong with feeling shitty feelings. It's just we don't want to validate those feelings and use them as a foundation for behavior, right?
B. Gayle: Yeah. I mean, I really don't. Yeah. I really don't.
Jessica: Yeah. And that's what's important. But in order for it to truly be like you get a gold star, you have to not be mean to yourself, also. You have to not tell yourself, "Oh, I'm unlovable," or, "I deserve this." You can't be a jerk to her, and you can't be a jerk to you; otherwise, you're not learning the lesson.
B. Gayle: Fair. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: Equal.
Jessica: So, that said, I feel like we can go to husband.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Do you feel so? Or is there another relationship we should look at?
B. Gayle: Yes. No, that feels good.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: That's the main one.
Jessica: That was the one.
B. Gayle: That was, like, recent. It's still like the mourning is happening. It's real.
Jessica: It's very active. So does your husband have long hair?
B. Gayle: As of yesterday, yeah.
Jessica: Okay. As of yesterday?
B. Gayle: Yeah. Recently.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Okay, because I'm just making sure I'm seeing him. I've been seeing this man with long hair, and I'm just making sure it's him.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. So do you have specific questions about the relationship?
B. Gayle: I do. And I want to keep it really cute, right? I want to just be—it's so long. It's my life.
Jessica: It's your life.
B. Gayle: So it's been a rocky ride.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
B. Gayle: It's been a rocky ride. It's been fun, and that's the thing. It's like I really value fun. I feel like I've had a lot of fun, but it's also been really demanding. So my question is, coming up on his late 30s and just tracking that, okay, we're going into midlife—we're growing up a bit. I don't have to do what I've been doing. And the idea of not doing it—you know, it's open. We've talked about it. I've shared that desire for space and for difference and change. And then the truth is my idea of caring for myself in that way is so daunting, and I'm so mad that I'm—that being a grown-up pisses me off so bad.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That fucking intercepted Sagittarius stuff in your first house.
B. Gayle: It pisses me off to think about insurance and water and just, like, that—
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: Yeah. So that's where I am.
Jessica: Okay. So let me get a couple contextualizing details.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Are you financially dependent on him?
B. Gayle: Oh my goodness. Yes.
Jessica: 100 percent? 50 percent?
B. Gayle: No. Honestly, I'm going to be— I don't know how much. A lot.
Jessica: A lot.
B. Gayle: Until last year—this is year one of me working.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: And I've been out of work for a decade.
Jessica: Okay. And were you raising kids the whole time?
B. Gayle: Yes.
Jessica: Okay. Wow. That's a lot of kids. That's a lot of kids.
B. Gayle: A lot of children.
Jessica: A lot of children. Okay. Okay. So money is an element. Now, when you think about wanting to be free, are you talking about free of the living with him, being in a relationship with him, or are you talking about having sex with other people?
B. Gayle: The first. Not the former.
Jessica: The first. It's not about sex. It's not about opening up the relationship.
B. Gayle: I literally could not do it again, and I would be fine.
Jessica: Okay. Great. I hear you. Okay. Hopefully, that won't be your life.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And also, I'm hearing what you're saying, and it makes [crosstalk].
B. Gayle: There's absolutely no desire to date and get out there. No. Not that.
Jessica: No. That's a terrible—yeah. You're smart. You're smart. Okay. I'm going to look energetically at this. Will you say your full name and then say his full name? And use your maiden last name.
B. Gayle: Fair. [redacted].
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm seeing it a little bit more clearly. You are so fiercely protective of your family. And you're in a little it of an impossible situation, right?
B. Gayle: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. Okay. Ground me back into the question.
B. Gayle: So the relationship is rocky. There has been trust issues, the back and forth, the growing up together, the forgiveness. For me, it just feels like when the activation happens, my number-one thing is like, "Boo, I'm out of here. Where can I go?"
Jessica: "I want to get the fuck out of here."
B. Gayle: "How far can I run?"
Jessica: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
B. Gayle: I mean, and not really run, because I'm not a runner.
Jessica: No, but—
B. Gayle: But that's my number-one thing, is like, "All right. That's it. Just boop, go." [crosstalk].
Jessica: Okay. So here's a question.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: When that feeling comes up—now, I know 100 percent of the time you can't leave. But do you have a room in the house, a car? Do you have a shed in the backyard? Do you have a place you could actually physically go when you get really activated?
B. Gayle: I mean, technically, yeah, we have space in the house. But there's no designated me space, which—
Jessica: Okay. That's a problem.
B. Gayle: —I've known for a long time is like—it's essential.
Jessica: Yeah. It's essential. It's essential. So okay. Am I seeing that you have a backyard?
B. Gayle: I do.
Jessica: I am seeing that. Okay. And is there not a shed in the backyard?
B. Gayle: No, not in my backyard. There—no.
Jessica: Am I seeing something, but it's not yours?
B. Gayle: Yeah. My neighbor has a beautiful shed that I gaze at.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. That's why it's like part of your backyard experience, because you're looking at it.
B. Gayle: Yes. So close. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. You're like, "Bitch, give me that shed."
B. Gayle: Yes.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And getting a shed for the backyard is unrealistic, right? It's expensive and—
B. Gayle: It's not, actually.
Jessica: Oh.
B. Gayle: I mean, I've had a shed in my Amazon cart. I've had one at Lowe's, and I've thought about it.
Jessica: Okay—
B. Gayle: Yeah. I've thought about it.
Jessica: —because let me tell you why I'm asking about this, because there's a couple layers of what's happening here. One layer is—listen. "I want to run away" is a fucking very old impulse for you. I can't tell if it was your mother or your father who had it, but it's like a family pattern. It's an intense, old instinct that gets stronger and stronger the more trapped you feel. And that would happen with any man or in any situation.
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So there's that. The other thing is you're trapped. You're fucking trapped. You're trapped. And even if the two of you have something that can be worked on and can be made happier and less activating, because you know you're trapped and then you have a fight and you're like, "Fuck. I need to get the hell out of here"—and then there's nowhere for you to go—you're in this cycle.
So I'm kind of like, okay, if you had a physical place you could physically go to breathe—actually just be in your own space, even if it was a teeny, grubby, little shed, that you put something that felt like you and that wasn't shared—hold on. Let me just look at this. Would it actually help? It wouldn't help at first, but it would help over time. If you guys can afford it and you think you're going to stay in this marriage, it's a worthy investment.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: You know?
B. Gayle: That just confirms the she shed that I've been—yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Good. Good—
B. Gayle: [crosstalk] doable.
Jessica: —because, really, he doesn't want to leave when you fight. That's actually not his instinct. Am I seeing that correctly?
B. Gayle: No. Mm-mm.
Jessica: Yeah. Honestly, you wouldn't have married him if he was a leaver. You hate that. It's your least favorite thing.
B. Gayle: I would say yes. Yeah.
Jessica: And so for you to be able to say, "I'm fucking mad. I need to go in my she shed. Let us talk about this in—give me 15 minutes. Give me three hours"—whatever the situation allows for. Then you can go in there. Blast music in your earphones. Then you can go in there and break shit. Then you can go in there and meditate—whatever the moment calls for. Right now, everything you touch is shared.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And it's making you feel more and more claustrophobic and resentful of him. Man, does he know how to fucking trigger you.
B. Gayle: Oh my God.
Jessica: I mean, it's like sometimes he says shit, and he knows he could say it differently, the exact same thing, and it would be fine. But he says it in a way that gets you, right?
B. Gayle: I mean—and when you said the last year, that's what I've recognized, is like, why am I so irritated? And I'm sure I irritate the hell out of him, too, but I am so just—
Jessica: You are so irritated. You are so irritated. And some of it's because you have a very predictable dynamic. There is not a lot of change in it. There's upsets in it, but it's like—have you ever gone to Dollywood?
B. Gayle: No.
Jessica: I don't know. I went there once a long, long, long time ago, and there was this roller coaster. It went up and then down, and then it went corkscrewed underground. And that's what it feels like your relationship is. It's unexpected twists and turns, but it's the same unexpected twists and turns.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And you're just trapped. I mean, I'm realizing I can say a lot of words, but what it comes down to is you don't have a lot of freedom, and so when you're in these same fights over and over again, you feel like you're bluffing because there's nothing you can do. There's nothing you can do. And also, the two of you fight. The two of you—whatever. You're a couple who knows how to fight.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And I actually don't think that's a bad thing. It's just there's a habit associated with it at this point. That's not serving the relationship. It's not serving your peace. You know?
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: When you work—are you working full time right now?
B. Gayle: Technically, it is full time, yeah, but I'm working my way up to actually being full time.
Jessica: I see. I see.
B. Gayle: I see clients, and I should be working more, but once I'm out and I leave the building, I'm like, back burner—I'll get to it.
Jessica: I see.
B. Gayle: So yeah. I do work.
Jessica: And then, when you say clients, what work do you do?
B. Gayle: Therapy.
Jessica: Okay. So you work at a place; you don't have clients—
B. Gayle: Yes.
Jessica: Okay. Okay.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: Do you like being a therapist?
B. Gayle: I love it.
Jessica: Okay, because you're so well suited to it, it's very impressive. Okay. Are you, like, year one of being a therapist?
B. Gayle: I literally—this is—tomorrow will be year one. I was a lot of other things before that felt therapeutic, but you know, getting paid is—it's not an easy thing to build, so…
Jessica: Yeah. It's not. It's not. And it takes a long time to build confidence within a private practice, or if you're at a hospital or whatever, it just takes time. It just takes time.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: So I'm going to ask you some questions about your marriage, but I'm first going to give you some homework, okay?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: When you leave work, you drive, yeah?
B. Gayle: Yes.
Jessica: Okay. Is there a place that you could stop your car and—I don't know—take a brief walk or listen to a guided meditation in your car or—do you see where I'm going with this?
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: Something that is strictly for you that on one day might take 15 minutes; on another day, you might give yourself an hour. Is that a possibility, or are you always rushing home?
B. Gayle: Some days, I could. Yeah. I could definitely incorporate that.
Jessica: Okay. So I'm going to give you the homework of going through your schedule and scheduling it in a couple times a week—
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: —that you're going to do something for yourself. I mean, if you want it to be a pedicure or something like that—whatever—go for it.
B. Gayle: Alone.
Jessica: Alone. Alone is the point.
B. Gayle: Alone. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. It's alone, and it's also spontaneous, a little bit, right? It's like, "Oh, if it's nice out, then maybe I'll take a walk." And if it's shitty weather, then maybe you'll just—whatever—do something else. Maybe you had difficult clients or you pre-want to murder your husband. Then you do a guided meditation in your car. Right?
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And I think that part of what this is about, of course, is giving yourself space and time. But it's also about you practicing making choices for yourself because part of that feeling of being trapped is you know you can make choices for yourself, but you're so out of habit, you haven't developed the skill. And so these little choices are actually going to be a big deal in your psyche, in your heart.
B. Gayle: Yeah. I've done something similar to this before that was so small and silly, but it was like, actually, it opened something up in me.
Jessica: That's what it does.
B. Gayle: So that makes sense.
Jessica: That's what it does. I think the idea that we have to do something massive in order to create change is—it's like a misunderstanding of how brains work and how psyches work and how emotions work. So the next thing I'm going to give you homework around is bill pay. There is the process of paying bills as in the money coming out of your account, and then there's the process of paying bills as in looking at the bill and being aware of the bill. And is everything on auto-deduct in your house?
B. Gayle: I mean, 100 percent.
Jessica: Okay. I'm going to give you the homework of, at some point in the course of the Mercury Retrograde—okay?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Let's make this a Mercury Retrograde exercise for you. You're going to sit down with the log-ins for all your shit, all your shared shit that your husband's been taking care of. You're going to log in. You're going to hate every minute of it, and it's going to go poorly, okay? Predictions.
B. Gayle: Got it.
Jessica: And just look at it. Just look. How much money have you all been spending? When does the money come out? Just do this. And again, it's going to do two things. It's going to—well, it's going to do three things. It's going to annoy the fuck out of you, okay? That's number one. But number two is it's going to be information, and then three is it's going to shift the energy of dependency that you have with him. If you met this man and you just had a conversation with this guy, yeah, you'd like him. You'd like him. But this person that you're fused together with is driving you nuts.
B. Gayle: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: And so leaving is the last straw, right?
B. Gayle: Yeah, for sure.
Jessica: It's the very last straw. And so what I'm pointing you towards is taking responsibility for things that are stuck that are yours.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: I will say about him there's something about him where I'm like, "Ah, this guy."
B. Gayle: Such a guy. Yeah.
Jessica: He's such a guy. But he's very responsive to you leading the way. So, if you decide in the month of February that you're not going to fight with him, he's going to quickly catch on. Is that correct, from what you've experienced?
B. Gayle: I think my point of view is just so skewed, and that's like—truly, it's so skewed that I'm just like, "I don't know."
Jessica: What is your point of view? Share it.
B. Gayle: When you say taking the lead, that makes me feel like my—well, I know emotionally I take the lead.
Jessica: Yeah. You do.
B. Gayle: But as far as if I stopped arguing and I was just having a chill month, would he catch on to that and be like, "Oh, we're having a chill month"? I guess he would, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't still be annoyed.
Jessica: Absolutely. Agreed, 500 percent. But I think—
B. Gayle: So yeah. This is back to me. Okay.
Jessica: Yeah. But the thing that's valuable here is that he's trainable. A lot of people aren't. You're not. I'm not. We're not trainable, for real.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Okay?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And usually, in relationships, there's one person who's a little more malleable than another in this way. You couldn't date yourself. And the good news is—and this doesn't mean he's perfect, and it doesn't mean everything's on you at all. It just means if you change, he will adapt to it because he's a lot more responsive to you than it feels like. And that's, in part, because you two set up a dynamic when you were too young to set up a dynamic that was going to last forever.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And it hasn't really changed; it's just become more reactive—
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: —and explosive.
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And so what is making you miserable, if I may use such a strong word—
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: —is that you're trapped.
B. Gayle: Not the first time I've heard that.
Jessica: Yeah. I'm sure.
B. Gayle: And yeah. I knew that. That's the obvious I was speaking of, is like, yeah, that tracks. That makes sense. Okay.
Jessica: Yep. Yep. And in terms of the other potential obvious is, should you just leave? Is this just broken and irreparable? The answer is, no, it's not broken and irreparable. It's not. And that doesn't mean that you can have a different relationship with somebody that you've had the same relationship with for 20 years. I don't know, but neither do you. You don't know. And the reason why I don't know is because you don't know. It is possible that you could do all the fucking work on yourself, and you'd still be like, "This guy." You know? That's possible. But it's equally possible that you could do the work on yourself, and then the two of you could kind of get to know each other as adults in a new way. But it will require that you know that you can leave him.
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm. I feel like that is it for me.
Jessica: That's it. Yeah.
B. Gayle: That's—
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: And technically, I can, right?
Jessica: Yes.
B. Gayle: Like, financially, even. It would just be—ugh. It's that feeling of just, like, it would not be easy.
Jessica: No. It's not easy to stay, and it wouldn't be easy to go.
B. Gayle: And that's a part for me. I don't feel trapped, honestly. I do feel like, if push came to shove and I said, "Whatever," I could. I could take the steps today. Not last year, not five years ago.
Jessica: Yeah. Right.
B. Gayle: I could take the steps and make it. I could do it. But—my gosh.
Jessica: Agreed. My gosh. Yeah. I mean, it would be so hard. And also, I want to say that you're really good friends, even though I don't think you're really good friends. Does that make sense?
B. Gayle: It's so funny. We talk about that all the time. Yeah.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: You're really—
B. Gayle: And again, the friendship thing for me, it reminds me of the friend we talked about first where it's like, "Yeah, we're friends until—boop."
Jessica: Until. Until. Until. Exactly. It's like you have this foundation. You actually do know each other. You actually enjoy each other.
B. Gayle: 100 percent, yes. I have so much fun.
Jessica: Yeah. I see that. And you fight like you're 23. You fight like you're 23 and there's no kids in the house. And this is the hardest part about partnering with somebody pre-Saturn Return. And this is why I'm always just like, "Maybe just wait." And it's for this, this thing that you're at. It's so hard to be your wise, integrated, metered adult self with someone who knows your feral side. You know what I mean?
B. Gayle: I hear you.
Jessica: You fight feral with each other. There's an element of that that I think is what actually keeps you—it's not 100 percent bad, having that capacity. What's really bad is that it's your go-to.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: So let's talk about you because we can't control him, okay?
B. Gayle: All right. Yeah. I'm with that.
Jessica: Yes. So the most recent thing he did to piss you off, no matter how big or small it was, what was it?
B. Gayle: It was lack of communication.
Jessica: Was it just, like, today?
B. Gayle: Just, like, literally Sunday. No, it was Sunday—
Jessica: Two days ago. Okay. Great.
B. Gayle: —which caused the question—which when I heard the last podcast was like activation and it's bringing up this. And I'm like, "Oh, I've been"—I mean, fire in my belly type of activation.
Jessica: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay.
B. Gayle: And it—yeah.
Jessica: Because of what he said or didn't say?
B. Gayle: Yep, and then the response. It was like, "If I said this and you felt my hurt and my concern, then move quicker. Do something. Meet me. Come." And he's like, "Okay. It's no big deal. I'm doing this." And I'm like, "No.
Jessica: Okay. Okay.
B. Gayle: So yeah.
Jessica: Some of what I see happened—and that fucking Full Moon—that Full Moon—I'm just hearing from so many people that there was explosions; it was just a very intense gateway into Eclipse Season. What I'm seeing in that dynamic—and thank you for sharing with me what happened—the seed of him doing something annoying, and you went from 0 to 20, and then he was reacting to your energy and not to your words.
B. Gayle: Yeah. Okay.
Jessica: So let me just slow that down and look at the energy as it moves. Hold on. Okay. You're at this point in your dynamic where you're like, "I don't want to fucking have to tell you anymore. You actually already know this information. You are not my child. You should get this."
B. Gayle: Yeah. I mean, that is—that sounds like me.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And he actually knows that he's going to piss you off sometimes, but it's like he also knows you'll tell him what to do, so what's the point? So he has this kind of classic learned helplessness thing going on in your dynamic.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Do you tell him what to do a lot?
B. Gayle: That sounds awful.
Jessica: It's not awful.
B. Gayle: That sounds awful.
Jessica: No, it's not awful. It's a thing.
B. Gayle: Probably. Like, just thinking back, yeah, I probably do. I probably do.
Jessica: Yeah. Like, "Don't put the glass there; put it over there," "Wait a minute. Wait. Just wait until the"—
B. Gayle: Oh my goodness. You know what? Yeah, I do.
Jessica: Yeah. Okay. Okay.
B. Gayle: I mean, with everything.
Jessica: With everything. With stupid shit, with deep shit, all the shit. Okay.
B. Gayle: Yep.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: And I'm like, "I know this because"—yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So your side of it is you are hypervigilant, and you micromanage as a result of your hypervigilance.
B. Gayle: Tracks.
Jessica: Also, he is like, "There's no point in me doing anything because you're going to correct it anyway, so I'll just wait for you to tell me what to do. If you're going to snap at me anyways, I might as well just do nothing until you snap." Now, listen. There are problems with both fucking approaches. You have created a salad no one wants to eat together, and you're both eating it.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: It's soggy.
Jessica: It's soggy. It's like nothing is delicious in this salad, and no one's digesting it well. However, at this point, what I'm seeing is that he does not listen to your words, because your tone is not something he can hear. Okay?
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Now, just because your tone is a problem doesn't mean we take him off the hook. But we can't control him. You can only control you. So I'm going to say another piece of homework I'm going to give you is, every time you have a feeling about this man because he did some stupid shit—put the glass in the wrong place, said it wrong, didn't say it enough—whatever it is—and I want to say for the record, 98 percent of the time, you're right, okay? Just for the record, okay?
B. Gayle: Thank you. I mean—
Jessica: Yeah. There's no question. There's no question. It's not about that. It's not about whether or not you're right. You're right.
B. Gayle: Okay. Fair.
Jessica: You are right. I can see it. You are correct. What I want to advise you to do the next time there's a thing—take a breath and say to yourself, "On a scale from 1 to 10, how annoying is he being right now?" Give it a number.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Validate that you are right. You have a right to feel whatever the fuck you feel. And ask yourself, "Can I accept this in this moment?" because that's the actual problem.
B. Gayle: Yep.
Jessica: You're fighting your reality.
B. Gayle: Oh my goodness.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: Yeah. And I recognize that I have a similar annoyance, something that somebody does at work. And I can tolerate it. I watch them. I am annoyed by it, but I can sit there. You know, I'm an adult. But when the same thing happens with him, oh my goodness.
Jessica: It's, like, impossible.
B. Gayle: And I noticed it, and I was like, wait a minute, I just sat through that yesterday. What's—
Jessica: Yep.
B. Gayle: Yeah. So it is—
Jessica: "Can I accept it?"
B. Gayle: —so much more—
Jessica: Yeah. It's, "Can I accept it?" And if you say to yourself, "I can accept that he's putting the glass down wrong or he's unloading the dishwasher stupid"—or whatever the fuck he's doing—if you can accept it, what you're also saying to yourself is that it's okay to have your feelings and not do something about them, because in the moment, the feeling is, "If I don't fucking advocate for myself, I am being walked all over. If I don't try to do something about this, I will drown in this fucking feeling."
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And when your coworker or your friend does the identical thing, it doesn't have the backlog associated with it, so it doesn't feel like you're in a tank and the water's getting deeper and deeper.
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And so the thing is you're pissed. Do you exercise?
B. Gayle: I just started. Yeah.
Jessica: Great. And what do you do when you exercise?
B. Gayle: I'm doing strength stuff, some hit stuff, some cardio.
Jessica: Great. Great. Have you ever tried boxing or capoeira?
B. Gayle: Love kickboxing.
Jessica: Okay. Great. Try to throw that in there. You need to kick some ass. You know what I'm saying?
B. Gayle: I do. Yeah.
Jessica: You need to beat something up.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And I want to just say your anger is glorious. I am a fan of your rage. Right now, your anger is burning you alive. It's fucking eating you. Do you know what I'm saying?
B. Gayle: I hear you.
Jessica: Yeah. And it's because you don't have space to yourself to off-gas, and you don't have an outlet. So, every time he slurps his drink, you're like, "I will murder you, and it will be justified.
B. Gayle: Literally, the wrong smack of a food, and I'm like—okay.
Jessica: Yeah. Murder. Murder is justified. Anyone would understand in a court of law. Like, totally. Yes. I am with you. I totally get where you're at here. But the practice of when you are using your legs to fucking kickbox, allow yourself to bring up the last time he did something stupid.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And kick it.
B. Gayle: Gotcha.
Jessica: I want to encourage you to take that energy and channel it.
B. Gayle: Gotcha.
Jessica: Now, if you do not use your body as a conduit to clear cortisol, to clear your adrenaline, it gets trapped as trauma.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And so you and me walking around, getting traumatized and annoyed and pissed off and traumatized and terrified and pissed off, but never channeling it through our bodies—it becomes this shit that we don't know how to process. And this is why I want, even though you're a Pisces and it might feel like you're being mean, I want to encourage you to literally just channel your rage about the dishes or about something stupid as you push yourself or as you lift a weight. Maybe that'll work for you.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: I don't know. And see if it helps to actually shake it off so that you're not constantly in this backlog of annoyance in the dynamic.
B. Gayle: I hear you.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
B. Gayle: That makes a lot of sense.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: In my heart right now, I'm thinking it just feels like pounding the pavement and running.
Jessica: Yes. Yes.
B. Gayle: [indiscernible 00:50:06]. But running—does that—okay.
Jessica: Yes.
B. Gayle: Because I feel like, when I run, I come back—I mean, you know, that bilateral is just like—woo.
Jessica: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So there's one thing about running that I was taught by a healer many years ago, which is when you're running, you can kind of outrun your own aura. And so, sometimes, when you're done with a good run—this is why you don't hear me recommending running a lot, because often, when you're done with a really good run, you can feel this sense of total—empty of all your shit, and that's because you've literally distanced yourself from yourself.
B. Gayle: Wow.
Jessica: You outrun yourself, in a way. But you always come back to you. So experiment with it. Be conscientious: "I'm going to channel this energy through my legs, through my feet, leave it on the pavement. Leave it on the pavement." And if you can come back and then you're helped for more than 15 minutes, if you're not back to annoyed in 20 minutes, great. It works. And if you're back to annoyed in 20 minutes, you can be like, "Okay. Shit. Okay. I'm going to track that. Maybe that's not the best move for releasing energy. It's the best move for my body, but not for my emotions."
B. Gayle: Okay. Fair.
Jessica: Yeah. And if you do end up getting yourself a she shed, you can—whatever—if there's enough room, do jumping jacks. You can lift weights in there. You can do something physical if that helps you to orient into your body so that you can check in and see, "Can I accept this?"
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: "Can I accept this?" Hold on now. Bear with me.
B. Gayle: Homework. A she shed.
Jessica: Yeah. Get a she shed. I'm very excited about this for you.
B. Gayle: I'm—oh my goodness.
Jessica: I think it's really important in your dynamic with your partner that you say to him before you purchase the she shed it's a thing that you're doing for yourself, but I think it's important to express to him, "I know I get intense. I know I get mad. I want to work on it. I have to work on it for myself and not for you."
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Be honest with him. "I need to find some peace inside of myself, and so I'm going to use this thing as a way to deal with the ways in which I feel trapped and give myself a place that's my place." And I think he will actually have a little bit of a hard time hearing that.
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And I also think he needs to hear it because that's actually what's wrong. He's annoying, sure. Okay. Whatever. Who cares? But that's actually not what the problem is. At the scale of your problem, on a scale from 1 to 10, at this point, your self-regulation is so off-kilter in the relationship—not in your whole life, just in the relationship—that you can't tell how annoying he is or not. You actually don't know.
B. Gayle: I agree.
Jessica: Yeah. And so naming that for him, finding a way to communicate to him so he understands that you understand that you're coming at the dynamic in a way that's not working for you—it's not working for him, but it's also not working for you, and that this is a way you're going to work on it, I think, is important because, I mean, you can be like, "Whatever. She shed," and just be like, "I'm going to get this thing. I really want this thing. I deserve this thing," but that's only part of the story.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Tell him the whole story.
B. Gayle: I have anger—you know, I have some things I need to work on. I need some space to process these things. Yeah.
Jessica: What does he do for a living?
B. Gayle: He's an independent contractor, so logistics and moving and delivering items.
Jessica: Okay, because I'm seeing he does something with his body. Is that correct? Or is he just a really physical person?
B. Gayle: The job is really physical. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. The job is really physical.
B. Gayle: Heavy lifting and moving.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: And I mean, if you have any feedback, he's so done with it. He's like—oh my gosh.
Jessica: I see that. He's also feeling trapped.
B. Gayle: [crosstalk] him. Yes.
Jessica: He's so trapped feeling.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And there's a part of what you need for yourself—he doesn't need the exact same thing, but he does need something similar, right?
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: He just wants to relax. He actually doesn't care if there's kids around, if he's in the room alone or not. That's actually not the biggest problem for him. For him, it's—he's caught in this cycle, and he's not doing what he wants in the cycle, in the relationship and at work. And is this his own business, you said?
B. Gayle: It is.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: Technically, like an independent contractor-style.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: So he doesn't have all the autonomy he wants, and that's the most frustrating part.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: That and the job itself. Yeah.
Jessica: I think that there is a world in which he could take—it's like 60 percent of what he does and keep it and adapt it and make it his own. The problem is it would take a huge amount of mental and emotional effort to do it. It's not like it's outside of his skill set. It's not like he couldn't do it. He's a reliable, smart, adaptable adult, yeah?
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: But it's kind of like he hasn't caught his breath.
B. Gayle: I mean, really, that is—I mean, when you said relax, that is 100 percent it.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: It's like the ability to take a break and actually slow down and turn off his brain.
Jessica: What he's doing when he gets home is he's unplugging and escaping—
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: —not relaxing because relaxing actually takes more energy than checking out, right? And that's why most adults—we check out after work instead of actually relax. So, for him—oh gosh. This is tricky because everything is tied up in everything for him, right?
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: He has a harder time parsing apart the pieces. He really wants to make a change, but he—you're too in it. You talk to him about this a lot?
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. You're too in it. And so is he open—
B. Gayle: [crosstalk] decision-making and in his [crosstalk]—
Jessica: His need to change—you have the same conversation over and over again, the two of you about this.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And now he's resisting you in the way he does. He's waiting for you to fix it, and also, he resents that you're trying to fix it even though he desperately needs your help, which is—I could say the same thing about you in different ways, right, with him? You have a dynamic.
B. Gayle: I have no clue what you're talking about, but I'm following you.
Jessica: Okay. Do you know what I'm talking about?
B. Gayle: No, really, I don't have a clue. But—
Jessica: Interesting.
B. Gayle: —the power dynamic situation of resenting and wanting sounds—yeah, that sounds like us for sure.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. So do you bring up him needing to change his work?
B. Gayle: Only in response to him—yes, I do.
Jessica: Okay.
B. Gayle: If I notice him looking exhausted or overwhelmed or upset—
Jessica: Totally.
B. Gayle: —I'm like, "You got this. Forget them. We can"—and honestly, this is what I thought you would speak on. I have had a dream, and maybe this is some way crazy, idealistic thing you can tell me to just squash. In my mind, we work together. There's a family business, and it's thriving. We usually work really well together when it's good.
Jessica: So your idea is not his idea.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: Your idea is your idea. And he doesn't bring up the desire to change jobs very frequently, does he?
B. Gayle: He doesn't.
Jessica: No. And what I'm suggesting is that the two of you have a dynamic where he's not happy, okay? He's not happy at work. And you're like, "Babe, you're not happy. Fucking x, y, z. These are your options." And you now have had this dynamic for so long that he, like a child, is resentful that you're telling him to change. And also, he's kind of passively—he doesn't think of it this way, but he's waiting for you to come up with the perfect idea that fixes everything.
B. Gayle: I wish I could. Yeah. I hear you.
Jessica: But that's not going to work—
B. Gayle: No.
Jessica: —because—is he—he knows you're getting a reading right now, right?
B. Gayle: No.
Jessica: He doesn't? Would he be weird about it?
B. Gayle: No. I really thought about asking him to join for a couple's reading, but I was like, "This is really not his jam. Let me just"—
Jessica: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
B. Gayle: —"do my thing alone," and yeah.
Jessica: So this is what I'm going to say. You can tell him, "I got the reading, and this is what I said," if you think he'll be open to hearing that.
B. Gayle: I would be happy to relay the message to another person.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Great. This is the message.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: The message is it's time for you, B. Gayle, to give him the space to ask for help and to stop supporting him the way you've been doing by saying, "Babe, you're obviously struggling. Let's come up with this new idea," or whatever.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: What you're doing is exactly what I would do. You see a problem. Speak a problem. Let's find a solution. That is what I would do.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: It is not working in your dynamic. If you just met this guy, he would totally love the help, and then he would get inspired by it. But you have a dynamic. You're too in it.
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And so saying to him, "Jessica said I need to stop fucking doing this with you, and I'm going to wait for you to ask for help if ever you want it"—
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And you just need to tell him this because you need to let him know, "It's going to be a feat of strength for me to not fucking give advice. And I'm doing it—I'm pulling back so that I can leave space for you to figure this out without my energy in it so much, without my"—because what works for you does not work for him. You have a very entrepreneurial mindset.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: He does not. He is really well suited to being an entrepreneur.
B. Gayle: Okay. Okay.
Jessica: But that's not exactly his mindset.
B. Gayle: No, it's not his—you're so right.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
B. Gayle: That's so true.
Jessica: So you see his potential.
B. Gayle: He got this job because of a conversation that I—yeah, it was very much like a me—"You can do that. Of course you can. You're"—yeah.
Jessica: Yep.
B. Gayle: I built it up.
Jessica: And now he has to come to it on his own. Much like you need to figure out how, after work, to sit for 15 minutes in your car and just fucking sing along to your favorite song and then go home instead of just going home, he needs to figure out how to build himself up outside of your vision and your language. Much like how it doesn't matter what he says, there's a part of you that's just reacting right now. Trust it's mutual, okay?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: So, when you try to help him, he's at a time in his life where he can't be helped; he needs to help himself.
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: This is midlife crisis shit. You know what I mean? He's only three years older than you, but that's where he's at.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And so letting him know, "It's hard for me to not give advice because that's how I know how to be supportive, but I'm not going to give you advice. But if you ask me for advice, I will have an excess amount of it. But I don't want you to feel unloved when I pull back my advice"—just say that to him, okay?
B. Gayle: Okay. Gotcha. Uh-huh. Okay.
Jessica: And if he comes to you in six weeks or six months or whatever and is like, "I actually am ready to change. Help me do this," then he's actually going to be able to take the advice you're giving him. Right now, it's just more feedback. He's putting it in the filter of not listening to you—
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fair.
Jessica: —which drives you fucking nuts. It drives you nuts.
B. Gayle: Fair.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
B. Gayle: You know, I'm just like, okay, I'll just watch this thing happen.
Jessica: Watch it—let him—or okay. Let me reframe that for you. Don't watch this thing happen. Instead, let him come to it in his own way.
B. Gayle: Fair.
Jessica: You have kids, so you see the only way to learn how high you can go on a swing is to fall off a damn swing, right?
B. Gayle: Yeah. Gotta. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. And you keep on stopping him from having that mental struggle because you're doing the work for him. Again, I identify with you in this situation. I am very much like you in this context, so I don't want you to feel judged or critiqued.
B. Gayle: Oh, no.
Jessica: It's just like you have a relationship dynamic that is—it's like half your fucking life old. And the two of you need to break it up, and the only way that that will change is if you change because you're a little bit of the leader in this dynamic, right?
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm. That makes sense. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. I think this is going to be a very difficult road with the two of you. It will require taking more accountability for yourself and him taking more accountability for himself and, as a result of that, having—both of you taking responsibility for your own boundaries so that if you snap at him, he can say, "Hey, listen. What you're saying is fine, but the way you're saying it isn't. That's not cool." And if he says it without snapping back, you're actually going to hear that, because—
B. Gayle: True.
Jessica: —you're just talking to him like you talked to him when you were 23. You know? This is not adult you. This is barely-an-adult you.
B. Gayle: No, I feel it.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: I feel the activation of, like, "That part of me just came out of nowhere, and now I'm"—yeah. I'm like a young 20-something-year-old.
Jessica: Yeah. You're a kid.
B. Gayle: Sweating under my pits and—
Jessica: Yeah. Totally.
B. Gayle: Oh, but okay. Okay.
Jessica: But it does look like the two of you can get through this.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And I'm not going to say, oh, I think you're definitely going to stay together forever. But I feel like you have a lot of really wonderful parts in your relationship to work with. Ultimately, if you're not friends, it's really hard to make a marriage work long term, especially between equals, and you are equals. You do have a good foundation in your friendship. You have problems in your friendship, but you have a good foundation in your friendship.
B. Gayle: Yeah. It feels solid when it's solid.
Jessica: It does.
B. Gayle: It feels so good when it's good, and then it's like, oh, poof, out of here.
Jessica: Yeah. I mean—
B. Gayle: But I hear what you're saying. Pull back.
Jessica: Pull back.
B. Gayle: I hear you say go slower.
Jessica: I am.
B. Gayle: Focus on your stuff.
Jessica: Yep.
B. Gayle: Look at yourself.
Jessica: Yep. And in the process of that, don't deny your emotions. I think you have this habit of convincing yourself to do the right thing by shoving your emotions somewhere. And what I'm saying is, like, okay, but you have to feel your feelings. It's just recognizing like, okay, "I am feeling an activation level of 10 because he did something weird with the dishes, but it's actually not that fucking deep. And so I know that my activation is not just about this moment. How do I need to take care of myself?" instead of, "How do I need to teach him to finally never do this again?" Right? Because if we can't accept that our partner is a different person and does shit differently than us, then it's hard to stay in the partnership.
And through this process, allowing him to fall off the swings is going to be a big part of this. It's like let him make mistakes. Let him do it wrong. Let him experience the consequences of it. And it won't just help him; it'll help you feel more free because you're not feeling like you're constantly needing to be hypervigilant in caring for this man—
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: —who actually can care for himself if given the chance.
B. Gayle: Yeah. He's capable. Yeah.
Jessica: He's incredibly capable. I mean, we could sit and talk shit about him if we wanted to, but he's a great guy. He's a great guy. You know what I mean? There's a lot of things wrong with him, but he's a person. Whatever.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: You do have something worth working on. And I don't know if you know this, but I tell people to break up with people all the time. But this is not it.
B. Gayle: And I was totally prepared. I was so prepared for you to say, I mean, any amount of things, and I would have just received it, processed it, [crosstalk].
Jessica: Yep. Yep. I understand.
B. Gayle: But I definitely know that you're not—yeah, you're not going to hold back.
Jessica: No, no.
B. Gayle: So that does mean—it means a lot. I also heard you say that yes, you could, but not right now. Like, yeah, working together is good for you.
Jessica: Yes.
B. Gayle: You have that entrepreneurial mind.
Jessica: Yep.
B. Gayle: Maybe not.
Jessica: Not yet.
B. Gayle: Maybe just—maybe not that.
Jessica: It's not yet. It's not yet because, with the level of fighting the two of you do, it will bleed into the business. That's one reason.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: The other reason why is you feel trapped now? Have your whole income tied to this man.
B. Gayle: Gotcha.
Jessica: Yeah. So I'm trying to get you to do less things tying yourself to him for now because then—I just wish we talked about this more as a society. Over the course of a marriage, like a marriage that lasts years, you will have to at times be like, "Do I want to be with this stranger, and why have I tied my life to this fucking person?" Right?
B. Gayle: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: You have to really consider leaving somebody to decide to stay with them.
B. Gayle: Oh, I've been there. Yeah.
Jessica: I mean, I know. Honestly, based on the energy when we first started talking, I was like, "Oh shit. We're going to have a divorce conversation." But actually, no. I actually don't think that's what it is. I think it could go there, but I don't think it has to go there.
B. Gayle: Yeah. Once I relax, I'm like, "Oh, let me"—I mean, I can literally feel the difference in my chest once I calm down and my brain—you know, that frontal is back on. I'm like, "Okay."
Jessica: Yes. Yeah.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: It's really about giving yourself space to have feelings instead of rushing to be like, "Feelings means thoughts. Feelings means words. Feelings means actions."
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And this process for you happens so quickly, and you have such an ingrained habit with this man, that these are not going to be easy habits to break. And also, if you break these habits, the chances are really high that you'll want to stay with him because he'll follow your lead. And that's a thing that we like about him, is that he doesn't do what he's told, but he follows your lead. Do you know what I mean?
B. Gayle: I 100 percent know what you mean.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
B. Gayle: And I mean, even that's irritating. Now I'm like, "Is it me? Am I the trauma?"
Jessica: But that's good. It's good. It's what you want. It's what you want. You want somebody—if he did what he was told, you would have no respect for him.
B. Gayle: I really—oh my goodness. I told him that probably like month two or three, like, "Please don't be that guy that just sits around and waits for me to tell you what to do. And when I do tell you what to do," a little bit of me does want him to say, "Oh, okay. Yeah, I'll clean the garage."
Jessica: Of course.
B. Gayle: But then, if I go start cleaning, he just comes and helps. And I'm like, "Don't help me now when you didn't, like"—it's awful.
Jessica: Okay. I'm really glad you brought that up. Moving forward, I'm going to give you a mental reframe for you to try on. And it may be a lie, and it may be the truth; I don't know, okay?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: The mental reframe is you start cleaning the garage. He comes and helps you. You're going to say to yourself, "How lovely. This man wants to be a part of what I'm doing. How lovely."
B. Gayle: How lovely.
Jessica: "I don't have to do this on my own."
B. Gayle: This man wants to be a part of what I'm doing.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a reframe. Honestly, it may be a lie. He might just be helping you because he's scared you're going to get mad at him. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
B. Gayle: Either way—yeah. I'm hearing you.
Jessica: It doesn't matter. Yeah. Just try on the mental reframe.
B. Gayle: I love a reframe.
Jessica: Yeah. Oh, I see you do. Oh, I see you do. And you can make it a mantra. So, as you're like, "I want to murder him. Not only is he in this garage now, he's doing this thing wrong that I didn't want him to do," you're just going to let him fucking do the wrong thing. You're going to just let him do the thing, and you're going to just repeat that reframe over and over again. And even practice saying to him, "Oh, I'm so glad that you joined me. This is actually helpful that you're here."
B. Gayle: Yeah. Thank you.
Jessica: And you can even try being like, "Okay. I was working for the last 20 minutes. Hey, do you mind just sticking with this for another 20 minutes? I gotta go take a run." And then, when you run, you're throwing energy into the cement and seeing how it goes. You know? You can experiment with different ways.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: But it's practicing permitting your emotions while reframing how you hold them.
B. Gayle: That's the part I haven't done.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: That reframing how I hold them—I like that homework because here they come. You know, they're here. When will this transit be—
Jessica: The transit be over?
B. Gayle: Are you saying, yes, girl, this is just who you are?
Jessica: I'm saying both. You are—
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: I mean, this is like—listen. You've been this way your whole relationship, and it's been significantly more intense and worse lately, right?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: So, in January of 2027, it's mainly over, but it comes back for you September of 2027 through mid-November of 2027. So you have a last gasp of it then. So you have another—a little chunk of time left. And then, honestly, if I'm being totally honest with you—because I feel like let's not lie to each other—
B. Gayle: I love that.
Jessica: Okay. Thank you. Your Pluto square to Pluto, which is a midlife crisis transit—right? Happens to everyone around the same age. Yours will start in January of 2029.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: So you're only going to have like a year off of two Pluto transits that activate the same shit, okay?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: So we're going to end on this. Your Pluto square to Pluto is going to do what everybody's Pluto square to Pluto does. It's going to trigger childhood trauma and the coping mechanisms that you are using from your childhood that do not serve your adulthood. That's what the Pluto square to Pluto does, okay?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And so whatever you don't work out in your ego responses and in your relationship to anger in 2026 and in 2027, it'll be harder and you will do the work '29, '30, '31. So it's like a two-year transit, so all of '29, all of '30. So up until '30, '31. Sorry.
B. Gayle: I really appreciate that.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: Last question.
Jessica: Yeah.
B. Gayle: Ego responses.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
B. Gayle: Ego, for me—I don't say I know a lot of things. When you say ego, do you mean like that individual, like, "It's me, and I know," part of me that just wants to control things?
Jessica: For you, contextual to our conversation, I would say it's entitlement.
B. Gayle: Thank you.
Jessica: What happens for you when you're activated is you're like, "You're trying to fuck with me? Hell no. I have a right to stand up for myself."
B. Gayle: Gotcha.
Jessica: And this is where I want to be really clear. Do not shit on your ego. Your ego is so important, and it's not about having—we don't want you to have a weak ego. But it's about recognizing that a truly strong ego is adaptable, and when you get to a level of activation of your ego that's not adaptable, then you're just fucking kicking and punching and screaming. It's not even directed anymore. You're not making your life better.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And so making sure that you're not a victim and then making sure that you're not a perpetrator, coming to the center, is being like, "Oh, I have a right to my emotions, and I am entitled to my emotions. And I'm not entitled to any tone of voice, any behavior, any set of words." It's about recognizing what is the sweet spot for you.
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: And within that, I want to just acknowledge that's going to be different for different people and in different relationships and in different moments. You don't need a hard and fast rule on this one, right?
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: As a therapist, you recognize when it's important to push people, right, and when it's important to yield.
B. Gayle: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You have that skill set, as a therapist, partially. Of course, you got training. But there's another piece of why you're so good at this. You're good at this because the expectations of that relationship are literally written.
B. Gayle: Yeah.
Jessica: And you feel safe that way.
B. Gayle: Love a black-and-white. Yeah.
Jessica: Yes. You do. And so, when it comes to a marriage, like, okay, well, you know what to do in public. But when it comes to the reality of, "Is he trying to take something from me? Is he demanding something of me?"—that is where it's just like your fucking thing goes all over the place, right?
B. Gayle: Okay.
Jessica: Yeah. Yep. I'm glad we got to that.
B. Gayle: That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that.
Jessica: My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. So there's a lot to work with here. I hope, if it feels right, that you have a conversation with him based on the stuff we kicked up.
B. Gayle: I definitely will. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Good. Good, good—and also that you get a beautiful, beautiful she shed.
B. Gayle: I thank you so much.
Jessica: You're welcome.