Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:            Faqita [phonetic 00:00:16], welcome to the podcast. What would you like to do a reading about?

Guest:              So my question is, does my hawk like me? So some backstory.

Jessica:            For sure.

Guest:              It is astrology-related. So I'm a falconer and wildlife biologist, for context. A lot of my job involves working directly with animals in often intense ways, so I carry a lot of guilt about having to euthanize invasive species—essentially, animals that I know are causing harm to the environment and we have to remove them to allow the environment to recoup itself. And even though I know that it's better for the animals that are loose and free, I still carry a lot of just darkness about it.

                        I'm still very much a scientist, but it does still sit with me in certain ways. And then—so, as a falconer, I spend a lot of time around death because the bird's favorite thing to do is to hunt. And I like how that has given me a new relationship and understanding with the other side and those things, and I like to use that to hopefully educate people a little bit and make them a little less uncomfortable with the concept of it and how nature functions and all that.

                        So I go back and forth, and I don't know if I'm—like, am I on the right career path? Should I take a step back and do something that's a little more PG-rated and then just keep doing the falconry on the side? I don't know. So that's kind of—am I in the wrong arena? Am I on the right path, just haven't really zoned in on it yet? And yeah, and then I'm also just curious if the hawk I work with currently is happy.

Jessica:            Okay. And so, when you say the hawk you work with, I mean, you're not going to the office and being like, "Hey, hawk. What's up?" Give me more.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Give me more. Give me more. Yeah.

Guest:              So the current one I'm working with—I say working with because I don't want people to see them as pets. These are really intelligent, independent animals, and we work with them to do the things that they naturally do. So there's a science; there's a practice to falconry. You have to be an apprentice for years. You have a sponsor. There's a lot of steps involved.

                        So the bird I have right now with me is an 18-year-old male Harris hawk. And he was—

Jessica:            How old do they live?

Guest:              So, in the wild, maybe 14 years. The oldest one I know in captivity in human care is about 39, which is crazy.

Jessica:            Oh my God.

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            That's so old.

Guest:              Yeah. It's crazy to think that this bird was born when I was in—oh, I don't want to think about that, what grade I was in. Anyway—but yeah, so he's a little bit older. He was a surrender, an owner surrender. Somebody had him illegally. They turned him in to the state government. State government handed him off to a local falconer. My falconry sponsor had him for a few years. And he did abatement work, which is where—you might have seen videos of this. People fly birds around hotels and resorts where the seagulls come, and the bird scares the birds away. That's falconry-based bird abatement.

                        So that's the work I've been doing with him. He decided to molt super late in the season, so right now, he's just kind of hanging out and being fat and taking up space in my living room. But that's fine. A lot of falconers, if they're trapping a wild bird—I had a wild bird—I've had two wild birds as part of my apprenticeship. I've already released them. So, normally, you trap a wild bird. You work with it for about a year. You can hunt with them for more seasons if you want to, or you can release them.

                        Since I wanted to do more invasive species stuff, which I kind of mentioned before—where I'm at, the prey is very different than typical falconry. So I wanted to get a bird that was used to a working type of relationship that is captive bred and there's no—I'm not going to mess up a wild bird that's going to then go into the wild and get hurt or do something. He's a trained bird. He knows the routine. And so I'm having him help me work on some invasive species removal efforts, while also letting him fly because he hasn't been working for a few years. He was just kind of retired, hanging out.

And so it was my sponsor, actually, who was like, "I have this sweet, little old man. He does nothing all day. I know you want a new bird, but just consider it." And he is super sweet. So I was like, "Of course." Yeah. He's a working bird because we do more abatement than we do traditional falconry hunting and wild stuff, I would say.

Jessica:            Okay. I have follow-up questions, and then I'll chat with him, and then we'll go to your first question. You bring him to specific sites or locations that you have access to through your job, your jobitty job?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And so the work you're doing with the hawk is also in conjunction, in some way, with the work you do through your job.

Guest:              Right. So I do wildlife control abatement stuff, and then my 9:00 to 5:00 jobitty job is invasive species biology.  So I've been kind of using my free time in between to marry the two and be like, "Oh, okay. Well, when I do go fly my bird, let me use what I've been learning at work and try to see"—

Jessica:            I see.

Guest:              —"if I can see some collaboration there." The bird gets to do what he likes to do, and I am doing something positive for the environment.

Jessica:            Great. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. What is his name?

Guest:              Ronan.

Jessica:            You didn't name him that?

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            Do you know what his name was before it was Ronan?

Guest:              I don't.

Jessica:            Okay. So is molting kind of like a more internal phase?

Guest:              It's external. It's physical. They lose their feathers.

Jessica:            Well, I mean their personality.

Guest:              Oh. So yeah. So that will change because their weight is changing. Their metabolism changes.

Jessica:            I see.

Guest:              And so, yeah, that kind of has an effect on their moods.

Jessica:            Okay. Will you say his name as though you were talking to him?

Guest:              Roney.

Jessica:            Okay. That's better. Thank you.

Guest:              Sometimes I call him Macaroni.

Jessica:            Do you have a question for him?

Guest:              A little bit. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. What is it?

Guest:              Why does he hate my dog?

Jessica:            Okay. There's a couple of things. When you called him a senior, that is correct. He has a real "Get off my porch" kind of vibe. Your dog is a midsize?

Guest:              He's like raven-sized, a little bit. Yeah, actually.

Jessica:            Okay, because your bird regards your dog as should be prey, like should be—"What are you doing on the ground? What are you on the ground for?" You know what I mean? I don't think he likes cats and dogs, period. I don't think he doesn't like your dog. I think he's just like, "This is an inconvenience to society. We should rid the world of this smelly, sound-making thing."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            He's not mean. He's just very matter of fact. He's just like, "No." You know what I mean? He really has no fucks for your dog.

Guest:              Yeah. And I say this with the context that a lot of falconers work with bird dogs, like hunting dogs. And it's a relationship they usually have to build. I've had my pup for a year and a half now. He worked with my previous bird. It's a thing that you can kind of work in. And I have just never had a bird be so obstinate, "No." Nothing makes it better. No progress is made.

Jessica:            He does not like this—I get the feeling he just doesn't like dogs.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And if he was going to like a dog, it would have to be a very large dog.

Guest:              Interesting.

Jessica:            The size of the dog would make more sense to him if it was a big dog. I think he has had experience with big dogs that he does not consider to be the same thing as midsize or small dogs. I wonder, if you ever are in a situation where there's a big-ass dog, if he has a different kind of reaction than he has to your dog. He does not regard your dog as food, but he's annoyed that he's not food.

Guest:              Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, he's just like—and it's not personal. It's just like, "What am I supposed to do with this thing?" You know?

Guest:              Yeah. And I'm like, "I don't want you to do anything. I just want you to ignore him." But he can't. The dog comes in the room—a big room, the living room. And the bird's—he's all fluffed up and calm, and he just—his energy shifts. And I'm like, "Just relax, buddy."

Jessica:            He's just like, "What is this thing doing here?" It's really just like—imagine your roommate started dating somebody who was there all the time and you didn't like that person. That's how Ronan feels about—I am connected with Ronan, so I want to say "this dog." This dog is like—he's not threatened. He's not scared of the dog. But he's threatened in that he's like, "You keep on being here. Why would you keep on being here?" And the dog gets positive reinforcement from you, which makes Ronan question you—to be honest, to question your intelligence, like, "Why are you interested in this beast?"

That's how Ronan is thinking about this because the two of you—he does feel that the two of you communicate, and you communicate specifically when you're working together. That's when he feels that the two of you have clear back-and-forth communication, so he thinks that you're smart. But with this dog, he doesn't. he's just like, "It doesn't make any sense." He is perplexed and offended.

I can't eat garlic, and when I'm around people who have eaten garlic, it just smells like there's trash coming out of their mouth. It's just like a gross smell. That is how he feels about your dog, just like—

Guest:  Oh God.

Jessica:            —this walking trash. I'm so sorry, but that is—

Guest:  It's okay.

Jessica:            He's just like—

Guest:  It explains a lot.

Jessica:            —"This isn't it. This isn't it." And so hold on. What's your dog's name?

Guest:  Gator.

Jessica:            Gator doesn't care about the bird either, though.

Guest:              So he's finally—yeah. So, at first, he was like, "Oh, toy. Toy." And I was like, "No. Can't do that. Have to be respectful." And now he knows—he sniffs around him and he's curious, but if the bird makes a sound, he puts his head down and he walks away. Gator has a total respect for the bird, but they're not buddies. And that's not possible, but—

Jessica:            I don't think it's possible.

Guest:              —I would like them to hunt together, which was the goal. And [crosstalk]—

Jessica:            Your dog hunts?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So your bird thinks your dog is too stupid to hunt. Sorry.

Guest:              I've tried to—I'll take them out at the same time, and I let him see the dog chasing things and catching things. And he watches. But then it just doesn't—

Jessica:            But your dog doesn't eat things that he catches—

Guest:              No, he doesn't.

Jessica:            —which Ronan sees as a sign of stupidity.

Guest:              Oh my God.

Jessica:            He's just like, "This thing has no utility. I could do what he's doing and then eat, and this guy is just playing with his food." Ronan's point of reference is so different than what you're used to, I think, with birds. And was he more of a pet than a hunter?

Guest:              I can't know for sure because I wasn't the one handling him. I know that he was with a woman for like ten years who was in abatement. I don't know if it was more birds. I don't know if it was rats.  I don't know what it was—most likely bird. It's hunting, in a way, doing abatement. But they're not always catching their thing. I don't know if he was hunted in her free time. Maybe she did hunt him in her free time. She did an amazing job socializing him with people because he's the sweetest bird.

Jessica:            He's great with people. Yeah.

Guest:              I can touch him, poke him. I can do anything. I've had to give him medicine and fix wounds and things, and he's totally cool with it.

Jessica:            He regards people as having a utility, and he understands people. Some people are smart; some people are stupid. He's really interested in intelligence. That's what he keeps on being like, "Stupid. Smart." He's just—I wouldn't say he's judgmental. It's that he knows that he's powerful and he knows that he's smart, and he's living with these people. You know what I mean? I do think he prefers women because I do think he's spent more time with women, but in general, he's okay with humans.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Is the idea that you're going to be his colleague and friend for the rest of his life, or is this more of a, like, for the next year sort of thing?

Guest:              If he'd like to. So that was—I was originally looking for a new bird. I could trap a wild bird again. But I kind of wanted to see how [indiscernible 00:12:43] could go, and it kind of lined up with my sponsor saying, "I have this little sweet old man, and he just hangs out all day. He doesn't get to fly." And the times I've taken him out, he shows so much excitement and drive towards things.

Jessica:            Yes.

Guest:              So I'm assuming he wants to fly; he wants to work.

Jessica:            He wants to fly. He wants to fly. He wants to hunt. He wants to communicate with you more. He's saying that when you're in the house, you don't communicate with him the way you do when you go out together. When you go out together, you're so focused and clear, and in the house, you're not. And so he also just really likes communicating and feeling heard. And he doesn't feel that way in the house, so he's bored. He's bored in the house, bored. Does he watch TV?

Guest:              I've tried to do—he seems to not like the TV. I don't know if it's the sound bothering him or something, but he'll jump when screens change or whatever.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Guest:              And I've had birds before where I used the TV to get them used to being inside, and they'll get used to it. Him, not so much. But he loves being around people. He's very talkative.

Jessica:            And what about radio?

Guest:              I haven't tried that.

Jessica:            I would try radio with him.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Or even try different kinds of music because there's a lack of stimulation indoors. And there's a lot of ways that birds communicate, and their hearing is just so radically different than ours.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            I wonder if he would respond well to different kinds of music or even to radio that had no visual component to it. He would like to—so there's this place you've gone with him where there's water?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And it's like there's not a lot of water there, but there's water; is that right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm. A little pond.

Jessica:            Is it boggy or—it's a pond. Okay. And was there a different kind of hunt there, a different kind of animal that you were hunting together when you were there?

Guest:              Yes. So there's a ton of invasive green iguanas, and I was letting him try to go for the smaller ones, which—he seemed interested.

Jessica:            He is interested. He's interested. And he eats them, right?

Guest:              He hasn't caught one yet. He's just kind of been introduced to it.

Jessica:            He's interested.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              He's also molting right now, so I'm like, I want to give him some time [crosstalk].

Jessica:            Yeah, he's not—it's not time. But I think you can let him know, "Yes, we will go to that location, and you will get to hunt for that thing." He just needs to go a bunch of times so that he develops a strategy. So what he's showing me is that you've gone to a bunch of places a couple times, but he needs to repetitively go to the same place over and over so that he can understand the dynamics of it. He's a very strategic guy.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            But he really liked that boggy place. I think it had really good sniffs for him. There was something about it that he really liked.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            He's showing me, like, his smell.

Guest:              Yeah, he's always happy when I take him there.

Jessica:            Yeah. The smell of it is like—it has a very nice texture for him. Is it dry where you live?

Guest:              We have a wet season and a dry season. So it's either really hot or really rainy.

Jessica:            Okay. And when you went there with him, was it one of those seasons? Or have you gone through all the seasons?

Guest:              It's usually pretty humid, at least—humid, and if it hasn't already rained, it's going to.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              So, like, muggy. Definitely muggy.

Jessica:            Muggy. Okay. Okay. Yeah. He just really likes the mugginess. Whatever that weather was when he was there with the groundwater smell, it was just very nice to him. So he's interested in that. In general, he would like to work more. And he doesn't want to like your dog.

Guest:              That's okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. He just doesn't want to have to. Can I check in with your dog to make sure he's okay?

Guest:              Absolutely.

Jessica:            And say his name again.

Guest:              Gator.

Jessica:            What do you call him when you're talking to him?

Guest:              Mr. Baby.

Jessica:            Okay. That's cute. That's cute. Okay. Hold on. So he's not super happy with the situation with the bird. It's like he feels safe and loved and at home with you, but he's tip-toeing around the bird, when he would like to be playing with the bird. Right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            He's resilient and he's fine, but he's not happy with the situation, right?

Guest:              Yeah. I can tell he's disappointed, like he wants to play with the bird. And I'm like, "It's a delicate creature. He's a little old. He doesn't want to play like that. You gotta respect that."

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              I mean, he's a puppy, you know? And Ronan is a senior.

Jessica:            Oh, he's a puppy. He's a puppy. Okay. That makes more sense. The best way I can put it—because dogs and hawks communicate so dramatically differently.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            But Ronan can hear Hunter think. It's too loud. It's just like when you're like, "Stop breathing next to me"—that kind of a feeling. That's a little bit of what the bird has for the dog, and the dog knows it. And the dog is just like, "What?" You know? So I would say that—okay. Let's see. Hold on. Let me see if there's anything that can be done. So does Ronan have multiple places that he can land and go above where Hunter can be?

Guest:              Gator?

Jessica:            God damn it. Gator. I'm sorry. I'm really bad at names. I don't even try. I'm going to just do dog/bird because that's just way easier when I'm being psychic. Okay. So are there a bunch of perches?

Guest:              So, when he's in the house—I have, like, outdoor enclosure for him, but I don't like to leave him out there often because mosquitos and other issues. But when he's in the house, yes. I have higher perches and lower perches. I just don't let him freely fly around the house because he could get hurt. So I have him tied to those perches for a time, but I'll move him to different spots throughout the house. So, if I'm in the kitchen, he's in the living room. If I'm upstairs, he's upstairs with me.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              So I have some things. And I've tried—I have a low perch, and I try to put him on that sometimes to try to see if he'll get used to seeing the dog and being at ground level, but he just—yeah.

Jessica:            Doesn't like it.

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            Okay. He doesn't like it. I wouldn't do that anymore. In fact, I think if you practice affirming for bird, "Hey, man. All this and up is yours. All that and down is his," that'll make him feel more safe and less like he has to fight for space, because right now he's not sure exactly when he's going to have to be close to that dog.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And he doesn't want to be. So I would say raise your lowest perches, if you can, to be higher. And then affirm it for him every day. "Hey, buddy, by the way, you don't have to be low, and the dog will never get high."

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Just reaffirm, "This is your space. Don't worry about his space. Just worry about your space." That'll help him. He needs a lot of repetition. He needs a lot of repetition. Dog is more adaptable than bird. Baby more adaptable than old man. That tracks.

Guest:              Yeah. My dream is just to see them hunting together, like Ronan flying, Gator running around, and them not being afraid of each—they don't have to like each other, but at least so they can be in the same space and do their thing.

Jessica:            I'll just say it's not Ronan's dream. It's your dream.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            What I can tell you, though, is if he feels more secure about his place and that he's not being pressured to be near the dog, you're more likely to achieve that. Ronan also really likes the sun.

Guest:              Yeah, he does.

Jessica:            He really likes the sun. And so he just wanted me to tell you that, that he just wants to be in the sun. He likes the sun.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            So outdoor time is good for him. And he just doesn't care about the dog, which is good. He doesn't actively hate the dog. He's just like, "This thing," which is actually a better problem. His disregard and apathy is better than a bird of prey hating your dog.

Guest:              Right. Yeah.

Jessica:            For real. Where does he sleep?

Guest:              So I have a separate room I can put him in, and he's just on his perch, and the dog can't get in that room. Or I have what what's called a giant hood. And so that's a travel box that we put them in. And so sometimes I'll put him in there. It's much quieter and darker, and it's kind of like a blackout box.  I don't know which one he seems to prefer more, but I'd imagine he'd be more comfortable in the box at night just because he knows the dog is in the house somewhere. I would never let the dog get to him at night, but I know that that probably feels more secure.

Jessica:            Yeah. He's not crazy about either of those solutions. He would rather be near an open window.

Guest:              Oh, he wants to see out at night? Interesting.

Jessica:            He wants to feel air is part of it.

Guest:              Oh.

Jessica:            I mean, I'm assuming where you live, you're not leaving the windows open anyways because it's fucking hot, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            He just craves outside.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So, if he had a view, would it be like city view, or would he have a tree or a skyline view?

Guest:              We're in an urban area, but there's trees. He'd definitely see trees. We have blue jays and other birds that come around [crosstalk].

Jessica:            Okay. I might try that a couple times and see how that lands. He's a pretty communicative guy, so you'll have a sense of how it lands. I might try that.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Do you ever go camping?

Guest:              Not until it starts to cool down. But I'd like to, yes.

Jessica:            And would you go camping with him?

Guest:              Yes. Oh, actually, this weekend, I am going up north to a friend's property that's much more rural, and we're going to be spending a lot of time outside.

Jessica:            Okay. So that's what he's talking about because he's showing me you going camping together. So you've told him that you're going camping. So he—

Guest:              Yeah. That's so crazy.

Jessica:            I mean, you're very effective in communicating when you are being pointed, but your casual communication is not happening. You know how to talk to him. People hear animal communication; they think, "Hi. My name is Jessica." But that's not what it is. It actually is like energy work. It takes energy. It's kind of a little bit of work. You're doing with him what you do with the dog, which is just like, "Hey, guy," you know what I mean? But I think he needs a little bit more structured, directed communication, letting him know before bed, "Dog—not going to get anywhere near you. This is your time alone."

Wherever you put him may put him at ease if you communicate really clearly because he's listening. He understands. It's really just about talking to him before you snuggle down for the night, you watch TV for the night, you get buzzed—whatever it is.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            It's more about, before you do that, saying, "Here's my promise. You're going to be on this perch, maybe that perch. The dog is not going to get near you," and whatever. Just give him a little bit of an expectation and clarity. And I imagine that over a not too long period of time, you'll see a difference. I wonder if this other woman he lived with was hyper-structured or something.

Guest:              Maybe.

Jessica:            But he's really structured. So it could be that that's what he's used to, and it could be that that's his personality. I don't know. I can't tell. But that'll help. He knows that you care for him. He just sometimes is like, "What's the plan? Where are we going?" You know? And—oh, no. That's all. That's all. That's all he had to say. Sorry.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. Is there anything else you want to ask of him or about him?

Guest:              No. I kind of was just curious about that whole dynamic with the dog and if he still is wanting to work and do things or if he's a little more laid back in his old age.

Jessica:            He wants to work. He wants to hunt. He wants to play. He wants to try new things.

Guest:              Just not dogs.

Jessica:            Not dogs. And I honestly do think that he has, at one point, hunted rats because he keeps on showing me rats. He's not showing me that he wants them. He's just showing me them.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Are there a lot of rats where you guys have gone?

Guest:              Not during the daytime, at least. No. It's mostly lizards and birds.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Guest:              Where I've taken him, at least.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. I mean, I just wonder if that's what he has done in the past or something. I don't know why he's showing them to me, but he is. Okay. Now let's get to your other very interesting questions. I'm going to pull up your birth chart. So you were born February 11, 1993, in Miami at 8:09 a.m.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So ground me back into the question on this side of our reading.

Guest:              So the grief that comes with having to euthanize a lot of animals—ecological grief, obviously, because a lot of people speak about—and this is not to sound gatekeepy, but the general public sees what's happening to the world and they have feelings about it, right? But when you work in the environment every day and seeing the water levels every day, seeing the degradation to the environment, seeing the policies, knowing that for the institution I work for, I can't speak out and be as much of an activist and do all those things—so there's just a whole lot of grief that comes with the job and the responsibilities.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              And I wonder, astrologically, is that causing me pressure and friction because it doesn't fit? Or is it because it's just something I haven't learned to wield or carry properly?

Jessica:            Okay. I don't know if it's either/or. I think you're feeling grief and terrible because it's terrible and sad, and you're in it. And you are somebody who's drawn to heaviness, right? You have a Sun/Saturn conjunction in the twelfth house squared by Pluto in the eighth. So being around different layers of grief or loss or hard realities—eh, it's kind of your thing. You know, not to brag, but you're kind of experienced, right?

                        The level and the directness of this—the question is, is it still in alignment for you to do? Is it sustainable for you to do? But I'm not surprised—I mean, this is very niche work that you do. Have I ever met a falconer before? No, I have not. All right? It is pretty niche. But I'm not surprised that you do something where you're constantly materially in contact with animals dying, planet dying or falling apart or whatever. That tracks with your birth chart, I'll say.

                        Whether or not you have to continue to do this work is a different thing, though, because you don't have to continue to do this work. That's not necessary.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            What I can see is happening for you right now astrologically is you have Uranus and Neptune both coming for your Mercury and your Venus. What I think is happening in your life is that you are really looking at, "Can I sustain it? Is there still room for me to have a personal life? How does this impact my mental health?" Right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So it's not really about just the work. It's about the weight of it in the context of all of your life. So the part that you're asking about, grief and death—how can I help with that?

Guest:              How do I carry the grief and continue with the mission, so to speak, when—like I said, I can't be an out-loud activist like I used to be when I was a teenager and in my early 20s because now I have a jobby job, and these institutions give us grant money and do certain things, and I—you know.

Jessica:            You can't be a biologist in the way you are and also be an activist.

Guest:              Right. I go through these—and I just like—the darkness that exists in the world and nature—and sometimes I'll—I tell people this. Whenever I have to euthanize something, it seems really heavy and dark. But I say I've learned a lot about how this works, the tools we use, the anatomy of the animal, the physiology, because I want to be as effective as possible so it'll be as quick and painless as possible.

But then my woo side of me is also like I go into this imagining that in the end of my life, before I cross over or whatever happens, I will have to live every single death that I've imparted on another animal. And so that's how I go into every situation or every workday.

Jessica:            Okay. Let's hang out with this because you're executing, is what you're saying, literally.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. When you take life, are you able to be present?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay, because that, I imagine, would be really hard. I eat meat, and I can't be present for it. I'm so divorced from the process of it, and that's what allows me to make the choice I'm making, in a way. Right? But you're not just doing it; you're present.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              Yes. Absolutely. And I was a vegetarian for a while, and I just—I couldn't hack it dietary-wise. And eventually I'd like to get to a point where I just harvest everything that I do eat from animal products, but again, that's a utopian world where everyone has access to natural spaces and—

Jessica:            It is so many layers of so many things needing to come together. And there is a way that while you are in the process of taking life, that you can develop a ritual for acknowledging the life that you're taking and sending it on its way. And I am not exactly sure what that practice would be. I think that there's value in researching cultural practices that might be in your lineage around what that might be. And you might have to do some fucking digging to find something like that.

                        But I think the process of taking a life and doing so while acknowledging the life, even the life that comes next after death—is that something that you feel like you would want to do?

Guest:              Yeah. So I actually—I pretty much always say something or take a moment, and we never do it alone. When we're in the room, whatever method it is that we're doing, we're always—have a couple people, and everybody's like, "Okay. Let's take a breath. We're going to count, and it'll happen." And then I always either say, "I'm so sorry for your circumstances, and may your next life be better than this one," or your next incarnation, so to speak.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              And I always just say that because—so I was raised Greek orthodox. And I'm not religious, but I'm real spooky. Greeks are very superstitious, and we just—the walls have a soul. Everything has a soul. Everything feels and sees and thinks. So, just the way I was raised, I could not get into this field without doing something in that situation.

When I first started years ago and I had to start dispatching animals, it was much harder. And I would get, kind of, side eyes and stuff from other biologists because they would see me have a little moment to myself. And I would be like, "I'm still doing the job correctly. I'm just doing it the way I think it should be done." So, yeah, I do have those little moments.

                        And I think the other thing, I guess a part that I kind of forgot to ask, is the grief builds up and then—so there's this rage, like just anger. And then I see people—like my state is being taken over by developers, and then there's people that are trying to fight the development and become these public figures. And they're really just trying to be influencers. And then we see people going out in the wild and mishandling wildlife so they can argue that they have a connection to nature, and then that also fills me with rage. And I'm like, "You're perpetuating the issue. Then it leads me to have to euthanize these animals."

                        And then, again, I go back to, well, I have to be—I have a jobitty job. I have to be quiet. I can't fight everybody. But yeah, that's the other side of it, too, is just the anger that just builds with every single time you have to do it.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. There's layers to this because how could you not be angry? Anger is a part of grief, and anger—I mean,  I don't know how you could do your job and see what you see and need to take the role that you're taking and see what, again, like you said, developers and even well-meaning individuals are doing and not be fucking pissed. I mean, that is very real.

Say your full name out loud.

Guest:              [redacted].

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. This is what I'm just going to tell you. There's a couple things. One is you're in a very intense job. And in staying in this job, either you become numb/you stop being yourself, or you feel grief and anger.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            There's an element of that. But the other thing that I'm seeing—and it definitely pulls from your matrilineage—is you're a deeply spiritual person. You're the kind of person who makes a lot of relationships with fucking hawks, okay? You are a spiritual person. And that part of you—you have eked in like 35 percent into the job. And it's hurting you. And I don't know that this job is sustainable unless you get weirder at job.

                        And you don't have to do it loud, right? You don't have to be ringing bells and singing songs to dying animals. But you can do it internally and with your guides. The way that you talk to your hawk is the same way you would talk to your guides or you would talk to the animals that you are dealing with. It's the same. It's all the same. It's clarity and intention. It's having your emotions and your mind trained on the same energy of the same word or idea. Does that track for your experience?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            When you're being intentional and you're talking to your hawk and you're saying, "Okay. We're going to go camping," you get present. You get a little still. You picture the camping. You picture the feeling of it, the spaciousness of it, and you communicate that really clearly. You can do that with the animals and say whatever it is that you need to say, like, "With love you go," you know, "With safety you go," before you end their life.

You function in a part of the world that most people never have to be confronted by.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And to do so as you are, who you are, yeah, this could fuck you up long term for sure. This could fuck you up long term. But I'm looking at your chart, and I do see that your spiritual capacity is like the hawk. It's got a big wingspan. It's wide, right? And you're constrained at your job, and you're trying to be like, "I don't have wings. I just have arms. I put them in my stupid shirt." Right? You're just making yourself small.

                        And I think that there are ways for you to have a shorthand way of communicating as you communicate with the animals and as you communicate with your guides or with saints or whatever it is that vibes for you because I know there are saints for animals, right, and for the suffering of animals.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And do you vibe with saints?

Guest:              Yes. So St. Francis, patron saint of animals—I love all his stories. Again, I'm not super religious, but I love liturgy and just—

Jessica:            Totally.

Guest:              I took a bunch of classics classes, and it's just fascinating to me minus all the patriarchal stuff.

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah. I mean, I would encourage you to try something here. Connect with St. Francis—do you drive to work?

Guest:              I do.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              I drive a lot during work, too, like to different sites.

Jessica:            Okay. So I'm going to say, in the car, before you get out of the car, even if you're running late, you take a moment and you connect to St. Francis. And you ask for the spirit of St. Francis and all that you associate with it—you know what I mean?—your connection to his energy to help guide you and remind you that you know how to communicate with these animals. And that doesn't mean you can get a lizard to not be a lizard or a bird to fly in a different direction, because I think people hear "animal communication" and they think, "Oh, I have dominion over animals. I can tell them what to do."

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            That's not fucking the thing.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            But you can communicate greater calm, greater empathy, more anger, more fear. You have had plenty of experiences of doing this in your job and plenty experiences of not doing this.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And dong it takes more energy and also robs you of less of yourself—

Guest:              Yeah. No, definitely.

Jessica:            —because this is not sustainable. This is not sustainable for you. This is like—the way you're doing it, you can do this for a number more years, but at a certain point, it's going to just be like drowning energy. And so, when you're dispatching or euthanizing animals, are you indoors? Are you always in the same kind of location?

Guest:              Usually, yes. If I'm out in the field with the bird—and so that's the other thing. The hawks—they don't euthanize their prey before they eat. They just kind of go in. So falconers always carry tools on them so when the bird does catch something—you develop a relationship with the bird so he trusts you close with the prey, and you sneak in and you make a quick exit for the prey item so it doesn't have to suffer.

Jessica:            Suffer. Okay.

Guest:              But it's usually like, in a work capacity, we take them to a specific area, specific room, very sterile environment, very hospital/laboratory-esque. So, yeah, it's usually indoors.

Jessica:            Okay. And I'm assuming it's your work that's more triggering for you than hunting with your hawk. Or is it both?

Guest:              I think it's work because, in the case of work, it's like—when I'm hunting with a bird, this is an animal that was already out in the wild. This animal has known, for its whole life since the day it was born, what a predator is. And they understand this fate. The animals that we take in are animals that already don't belong in the environment that they're in. They're captured by humans. It must be something like an alien abduction, you know—

Jessica:            Absolutely.

Guest:              —which is just incredibly jarring and cosmic horror-esque. And one of the things that I do that a lot of biologists are always like, "Oh my God. Why do you do that?" is I make an effort to look the animal in the eye. From what I've learned with hunting and falconry is, when an animal is captured by a hawk, they're seeing those eyes. And it's that sense of there's a living thing that is now taking my living being. And I don't know. There's just some animalistic exchange and understanding that I feel like it's the least you could do, is acknowledge that.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              And it's hard.

Jessica:            Most people don't have the capacity to do that, right? Most people really disassociate from it. What you're doing is very—"humane" is maybe the wrong word because it's human centered, but it's the correct action. I would say that I think that's great that you do that. This is where you want to call in bigger guns than the ones you have, so whether that's St. Francis or that's your guides or that's something else that resonates with you.

                        And my advice to you is to develop a shorthand with it so that it doesn't have to be like a big thing you repeat because you might be having to interact with colleagues and facilitate tasks. This is where you want to have a shorthand, which is part of why, before you get out of the car in the morning, you set the intention that you're calling in those guides; you're calling in St. Francis.

                        Then my prescription is, at the end of the day, when you get back in your car, you just take a minute to return to yourself and set the intention that if any souls are left in any way lingering, that you just acknowledge and try to help them forward. And you can shift that in a way that it works for you. But because your capacity to experience energy and connection is so deep, going by routine is fucking you up. It's kind of skipping over all these really deep puddles. These are not puddles. They're like fucking—these are crevices, right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            I think hanging out in the crevices, naming the crevices, will actually—it's like labor and it's hard. And also, it will be easier on you on a soul level.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And then what you're doing when you're with your hawk, it just looks so different to me. It just looks like—I imagine, cumulatively, it's all kind of the same, in a way, for you. But I mean, like you said, it's like that's what they do. It's like you're not making it happen.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            You're participating in it, but you're not the creator of it, which is a really different—

Guest:              Right. That's animals' way of living. It's not a celebration of, "I get to go out and take something's life." It's, "I get to go out and help something live its life to the fullest." And in this case, it's an animal that hunts naturally.

Jessica:            Yes.

Guest:              That ethos behind it makes it a lot easier to cope.

Jessica:            When I look at you energetically, being in nature is a yes.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Part of the problem is when you go back to the sterile environment.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            It's the rounding up and bringing them to and then—

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            If it was all done on site, it would actually be a lot easier for you because it would be easier for them.

Guest:              Right. Exactly. It would be quicker.

Jessica:            It is a more natural thing to do.

Guest:              Exactly. It's not an alien abduction. It's just, "Oh, I got got."

Jessica:            Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But this is so many extra steps for human bullshit, in a way, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And in a way, you are now the hawk, and your job is the dog. You know what I mean? Like, why? Why are you—why am I—why? You know what I mean? And you are bringing things to the work, and you are learning, and you are adding to—it looks like you're adding to a field of study. Is that wrong?

Guest:              So, yeah, I'm trying to come up with new methodology for removing invasives that mimics natural hunting situations for hunting dogs, birds, things like that. And it wouldn't be a be-all, end-all solution, but just incorporating those things as another tool in the toolbox. But the scientific and general public is so vehemently anti-hunting, anti-whatever, that I never really get a chance to explain the whole, "This is a much more natural process for an animal than a laboratory environment."

                        Part of me is like, do I even want to get into that battle and push for that? Or should I just take a step back and focus on hunting and make my jobitty-job 9 to 5 something else? Because I know that's a worthy cause, but it's also just like I don't even know how I would begin to break that down.

Jessica:            That is such an important question because you do feel called through research and education to make it better.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You do. And the truth is, if I wasn't having this deep unpacking conversation with you, I also would recoil because all the murdering is done somewhere else. I'm completely disconnected from it. I don't think about it when I'm eating. I don't think about it when I'm wearing my shoes. I don't think about it when I'm walking in spaces that don't have invasive species or where they're managed. I don't think about it.

Nobody has to think about it except for you all, the people who do that work, and maybe hunters and people who are very connected to the land. So it's easy for us to recoil from this larger conversation because we're going, "La la la la la. I can't hear it. I don't see it." Right?

Guest:  Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So this is kind of your fucking jam, right? You're dealing with—you're the only one willing to name the thing that's happening. You're just like, "But this is happening. So, if it's happening, can't we do it better?" And people are like, "Yeah, but it shouldn't happen." Okay. It shouldn't happen, but then what? How? How? And so, one way or another, you have a fight in front of you.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And I am not seeing that in this specific moment you feel well enough resourced to take that on in a super public way.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            It looks like you're moving in that direction, but moving slowly is wise.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You may, depending on what happens politically, be like, "No. No." Or something may shift that kind of makes the path clear to you.

Guest:              I mean, it's funny you bring up politics because my partner—he's also a biologist and very progressive and leftist. So we talk a lot about everything going on in the world constantly. And we daily come home and just, like, "We're so privileged to be studying lizards. We should just quit and go do some public service-type jobs." You know, then I go back and I'm like, "Wow. I'm so lucky to sit here and debate if I'm a good biologist or not. Meanwhile, I could just be working on the front lines somewhere where more help is needed."

That's a whole other qualm I have with the biology field as a whole, is there's a lot of ego in it. And because, "Oh, I work in conservation," and that's like—they just write that off, and, "I'm a good person," and they stop right there. And we can't talk about Palestine. We can't talk about food insecurity. We can't talk about all these things in those spaces. And that also eats at me because if we're not talking about those things, we're not talking about anything.

Jessica:            You're not talking about anything.

Guest:              We're just gardening. We're just keeping the area nice for the one percent that will be able to enjoy it while we're all gone. That's what we're doing. [crosstalk].

Jessica:            So let me just slow you down there. Let me slow you down there because you're 100 percent right. I am not going to disagree with you about a fucking thing you said. You are 100 percent right. And there's no job that you can have that will make that more or less right. So, if you worked in some other field, what field exactly would you be able to talk about all political things and interconnectedness? There is no field because the system is corrupt.

Guest:              You're right.

Jessica:            Yeah. The system is corrupt. Yeah. And so the way you're holding this is correct. And also, if you believe that the work that you're doing is important for the environment, then it is important. All to say you've got to be able to live with yourself. You can't change the world. You've got to be able to do work in a way that you feel like, "Okay. This is my one precious life. This is my contribution. These are my days," and to not confuse that with saviorism.

Are you going to change the biologists at your company or your organization, in your state, in 2026? You're not going to fucking change them. Now, could you be a force for change within your organization and your state? Yes. But change in a broken system—it's so slow. You don't have to do this work. But if you feel called to the work, stewarding the environment—even in a gruesome way, which is what you're doing—is stewarding the environment.

And I think different people can hold this in different ways, but for me, it is the act of presence and connection that is really what makes it humane. And again, I don't like the word "humane" because it's human-centered, and this is not really a human-centered issue. But it makes it—this is what life—in the, quote unquote, "wild," a.k.a. the non-fucking-destroyed lands that us humans like, everybody is present with each other. And it's not fair, and it's not safe, but there is more presence.

And so this is why I've kind of pointed you towards connection and presence with the material and the spiritual. And that's kind of been the theme, whether we're talking to our hawk friend or we're talking about these animals that are being dispatched. Is that the word?

Guest:  Dispatched. Yeah.

Jessica:            I don't know why I can't hold on to that word—because I've never heard it used in that context before. So do you like writing?

Guest:              Oh yes. I love it.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. You like writing. Are you allowed to write a book about your work and your understanding of how things are interconnected?

Guest:              I mean, yeah. No one would stop me, I don't think.

Jessica:            Would they stop you from getting published?

Guest:              As long as I'm not giving away any specific data or information on—like, just my personal experience, if it's all anecdotal.

Jessica:            I mean, that's something that I'm going to throw in the ring, not that you should do it this month, but what if you as a biologist and somebody who works in the field with very niche work—you have to know your work is very niche—and your ability to see what is happening with food insecurity and in Palestine and all of these things that you're naming—being able to connect these things, you have a unique position. What if you wrote? Would that help to make meaning of the suffering that you are participating in and that you are bearing witness to?

Guest:              That does make sense. I think it would.

Jessica:            Yeah. The way that your chart is organized, when you can make meaning from suffering transforms your suffering. It doesn't transform it from pain, but from suffering. And you are able to handle pain when you know that there's a bigger reason.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And Ronan would be a good writing partner. Yeah. He would be really down to just hang out with you while you write because when you write, he's showing me you're communicating with him. You're very focused when you write. He thinks you're very unfocused at times and then very focused at times.

Guest:              Yeah. That's accurate.

Jessica:            You're very plugged in or very unplugged. And so, any time you're plugged in, he's 100 percent into it. So, I mean, he's like, "Why don't you just go outside in the sun and write?" because that's all he wants, is to sit outside in the sun. But it's not bad advice. You know what I mean? Maybe it's too hot to sit in the sun and write, but it's not bad advice to sit with him and write and see if that helps.

Guest:              I like that idea.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              That sounds like a really nice activity.

Jessica:            And I think it could have a really powerful outcome. Whether it's something that you write for yourself or you write academically or you write for public, you can decide that later. But start off by just writing what you want because if you put on, "I'm writing this for academia," you're going to not be too weird or too spiritual or—

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            —intersectional. Write what you need to write. Get it out of you. Communicate what needs to be communicated. Talk to your partner about it because it sounds like you can actually talk to him about the complexity of all of this. Yeah. It just looks really strong to me.

                        Now, was there a second part of the question that I've missed? Or did we speak to the whole question?

Guest:              That was pretty much it, is like, do I need to—is this something I can learn to wield and create with these rituals and things that you gave me, those examples? Or should I just call it quits and go be an art teacher?

Jessica:            I don't think you're ready for that.

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            I don't think you're ready for that.

Guest:              I have to admit I like being at the center of emerging and conflict and then fighting what the solutions are. To do something that's already very laid out and planned, I feel like, would just be too boring.

Jessica:            I agree, and also, your capacity for intensity is a gift that will eat at you if you don't have an outlet for it. You don't need drama, because you live in the fucking pit, right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            Take yourself out of the pit, and then what happens to your need to work through things deeply and your capacity to be in such intensity? It will need to be expressed one other way. I mean, that's part of what brings me to my work, is my capacity and drive to be in it. And if I didn't have that, then oh no, what would I do? Where would I go?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You know? It's good to find work that matches your nature, but you need to find ways of working with it that don't eat at you. And that's really what we've been talking about.

Now, before we started recording, you said you would show me your bird.

Guest:  Yes.

Jessica:            Could I meet him?

Guest:  Yes. Absolutely.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:  This is my guy.

Jessica:            Oh my God. Hi.

Guest:  Say hi.

Jessica:            Hey. Oh my gosh.

Guest:  It's okay, bud.

Jessica:            He's gorgeous. I've never seen a hawk that looks like him.

Guest:  Yeah. He's all chestnutty brown. That's the species.

Jessica:            Oh my God. Look at—

Guest:  They're speckly and striped when they're young, like you know, normal hawks.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              But he's a Harris hawk if you have a chance to look it up. If you ever happen to see falconers or doing abatement, nine times out of ten, they're using Harris hawks.

Jessica:            Oh. Interesting. I didn't know that. That's cool.

Guest:              It's the social aspect of them.

Jessica:            Right, because—

Guest:              They work really well with people.

Jessica:            That makes sense that it's not just a regular-degular, flying-around-town hawk.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            They're massive, too. They're so big.

Guest:              Yeah. So a red-tailed hawk is like twice his size.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              It's much bigger and much more powerful, bigger feet, bigger claws, and very serious bird. I flew one last year. It was a lot of fun. But very, very serious bird, very different energy from this guy.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. I believe that.

Guest:              Oh, fluffy.

Jessica:            Gorgeous.

Guest:              Yeah, getting comfy.

Jessica:            Good. Yeah. I'm just letting him know I wasn't going to come out at him. He feels like something's going to come out at him from the screens. It's just like all the movement, and he can't smell, so he's not getting—his senses can't pick up on what's coming out of a screen. So it's people, but it's not people. So, yeah, he doesn't like screens. But don't forget about the—

Guest:              Radio.

Jessica:            —radio or music.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. I feel like he might like classical music.

Guest:              Yeah? Okay.

Jessica:            I wonder—do you listen to classical music?

Guest:              I do.

Jessica:            Okay, because that might be why he's showing me classical music. Do you listen to it out loud or in your headphones?

Guest:              Out loud.

Jessica:            Okay, because I think he likes that.

Guest:              I love violins and stuff, so I think he's been hearing.

Jessica:            Yeah. I think he's into it. I think he's into it. He's gorgeous.

Guest:              He's preening, so that's a good sign.

Jessica:            Good. It's like calming him.

Guest:              [crosstalk] himself, he's comfortable. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Good. Good. I'm so glad. This was fun. Well, thanks so much for writing in with this great question. And I really wish you the best in this whole process because it's a lot.

Guest:              Thank you so much.

Jessica:            My pleasure.