Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:      Carmen, welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Carmen:          Thank you. My question is, "My ex-husband and I co-parent our daughter 50/50, and our dog, Coco, goes back and forth with our daughter. I think our daughter has adjusted very well to the change, but I'm not sure Coco has. I'd like to understand whether Coco feels loved and supported in this co-parenting dynamic and, if not, what I can do to help her."

Jessica:            That's sweet. And I haven't done an animal communication reading in so long, so I'm really—I'm happy to be doing this. A couple little questions here. The first is, how long were you with your husband and your Coco?

Carmen:          Yeah. So Coco was only with us for a year before we separated.

Jessica:            Okay. But you were with your husband a lot longer?

Carmen:          Ten years—twelve years, ten years married.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. And how old is your kid?

Carmen:          She's six.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. And why are you doing 50/50 with the dog? I get why you do it with the kid.

Carmen:          Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think our daughter loves Coco and sees her as a sister, and I think we wanted to help it be easier for our daughter to feel less alone in going back and forth.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. So let's kind of dive in. And that's Coco right behind you, right, that little, black snuggler?

Carmen:          Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. Okay. So I'm going to have you say her full name, both her name and what you actually call her.

Carmen:          Okay. Full name, [redacted]. We call her Coco.

Jessica:            Is she sleeping sleeping, or is she just lying down?

Carmen:          She's lying down.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. Hold on. Okay. So let me just make sure I'm kind of locked in. She's a very sweet, very loving dog, but very attentive nervousness to her nature?

Carmen:          She's almost always looking at me, like aware of my movements, so, in that way, very attentive.

Jessica:            Yes, and like she's not quite sure what to make of new people.

Carmen:          I don't know. Sometimes she'll go right up to them and want all of their love and attention, but she has somewhat of cat energy. She goes up to people when she wants to.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Just give me another second here because she is tentative with me. So hold on for just a moment, okay? Bear with me for a second here. Yeah. Are you a little nervous about getting the reading?

Carmen:          Me?

Jessica:            Yeah.

Carmen:          Maybe.

Jessica:            Okay, because she's weird nervous about this kind of thing. So that's cool. That's cool. It's cool. Everybody's nervous about getting a reading. That is normal human behavior. Okay. Cool. So I want to just actually talk you through my process a little bit. Consent is key with humans, with animals. And so I'm kind of settling in and saying hi, and her initial response is kind of like, "But we're nervous about this." She's a little tentative with me. She's a little like, "I don't know," which is consistent with your reporting that she checks with you. She's like, "If we're nervous, then we're nervous."

                        Okay. Okay. I see. I see part of what's happening here. The ex—your feelings about him are kind of like there's—it's complicated. Some of this is going actually pretty well, yeah?

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            And then some of this is as fucked up as any breakup would be and complicated and emotional as any breakup would be?

Carmen:          Not between us interpersonally, but yeah, I've felt a lot of grief. Yeah.

Jessica:            Inside of you. Inside of you.

Carmen:          Yeah. Inside.

Jessica:            Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, it looks like as far as co-parenting/conscious uncoupling goes—I mean, I rolled my eyes a little bit at the term, but I actually think it's appliable here. You guys have a very adult agreement here.

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            But the concern is not Coco's happiness when she's at your house.

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            The concern is Coco's happiness when she's at ex's house.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So, straight out the gate, let's just acknowledge that. It's not the co-parenting. It's the not being with you. It's also the being with him. Coco is—this is the wrong description but the best one I can come up with—ride or die. She's like, "We're not all about him now." (laughs)

Carmen:          (laughs)

Jessica:            Sorry. But she's just like, "Why am I going to him and leaving you?"

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            It's not that she doesn't love your daughter. And will you say your daughter's first name?

Carmen:          [redacted]

Jessica:            She is intensely attached to Coco the dog.

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            Like, intensely attached. And you are wise and correct that that is the best setup for your daughter, for your daughter to be with Coco, because she has attachment stuff like any child would have. And also, she has attachment stuff. And Coco gives her so much comfort and support. And Coco is down for that, but she is like, "Yeah, but we don't fuck with him anymore." She—okay. Wait. I'm lying to you. She would not curse. Let me try to actually share with you more of what she's showing me.

                        Coco and you are very similar, very similar. There is a way that it's like you're trying really hard to make sure that your attitude and your intentions are good, and so you're making sure that you're not being mean and you're not being too much. And Coco kind of does that same thing. So I'm wording it in my personality, and Coco is like, "I would not say that. I wouldn't be that aggressive." She's not aggressive. She's not aggressive. She understands that—we're going to call your ex-husband Jeremiah. Don't ask me why. Okay. I just think it's funny, so I'm going to go with it—no disrespect to Jeremiahs of the world.

                        She understands that Jeremiah is not an enemy, and she also understands that he's not home. She also understands that she's leaving you, and when she leaves you, you have buckets of sad. And so she understands—she believes that you have buckets of sad when she leaves you. Your face said, "Eh," but she believes that. Okay? And she believes that when she's there, you are soothed and you feel more whole. Is that wrong?

Carmen:          I mean, I think that she is very soothing, and I have buckets of sad all the time—and joy. Buckets of sadness and buckets of joy. I think that it's been good for me in this separation period to have days where I am fully alone and not responsible for anyone other than myself. And so I don't think I feel particularly sad when she's not with me because she's not with me, but I also think—yeah, she's by my side all the time when she's here.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. This is one of those things where dogs are pack animals. I mean—and I'm not a dog expert, but this is one of those things where her interpretation and understanding of who you are and what you need and your situation is from her perspective, right? And her understanding of you being alone with your sadness—to her, it's a bad thing, right?

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Because she's a pack animal. And I understand—because I did look at your chart. You have enough eighth-house Scorpio stuff in your chart where you're just like, "No, no, no, leave me be with my intensity. I'm good with that." So a couple things. Thing one: she is fine with the separation. She is not fine with leaving you. So we'll call the problem what it is, right? The other thing is she understands her job is to care for your child, and she loves your child, so that's not a problem. And is that what you understand, that she loves your child and that she's happy to be—

Carmen:          I get a sense that she tolerates my daughter.

Jessica:            Okay. So she's showing me that she loves your daughter—

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            —but not the way that she loves you.

Carmen:          Yes. I feel that.

Jessica:            Yeah. So I can communicate to her the most supportive thing that she can do is take care of your daughter while you're not there, that that's actually what you need more than anything. I will say that as far as she understands—and let me just make sure I'm seeing this correctly. Yeah. You have communicated that, and you've also taken it back. You've said it, and you've pulled it back. She's getting a mixed message from you. So I don't know if that's how you've communicated, what you've communicated. I don't know if that's just her understanding. But that is what she's showing me.

                        She's like—okay. Think of it this way. You know how sometimes you have a friend, and they're like, "No, no, no, I don't want to talk about x, y, z," but then you can tell that they're desperate to talk about x, y, and z?

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            She feels that way about you. Whatever you say, animals understand what's happening emotionally. And so she really feels the mixed message from you.

Carmen:          Can you share more on what the mixed message is? What is it that I'm communicating  versus what is it she's perceiving?

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. When you communicate with Coco, you're really clear with her when you're just connecting with Coco. You don't overthink it. You just share with her. So animal communication is really just like your thoughts and your feelings being in alignment. So, "I want you to come over here so I can pet you," as trying to think that at your dog—if you don't feel it in your body, they're not receiving the message. Now, maybe they received the message, and they don't want to be pet or they don't want to go over there. But that's how animal communication works.

                        You alone do a really good job of communicating to Coco what's happening inside of you and kind of what your needs are boundaries are. That's what she's showing me, okay? She feels really clear with you. You give her space. She likes space.

Carmen:          Because she's like me.

Jessica:            I mean, I really think the two of you have a lot in common. So she likes to feel needed, she likes to feel loved, and she likes space. So check, check, check, check, check. And then you communicate, "Okay. Time to go. Bye." And that's all you communicate.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            So you say, "Okay. Time to go. Bye." And then you have this well of grief and this well of sadness and this well of mixed emotions of not knowing where you belong and where you place. And so she understands that, and she's like, "Well, shit." Sorry. She's not a cusser. Every time I cuss on her behalf, she's actually a little—do you have a problem with cussing?

Carmen:          No. Mm-mm.

Jessica:            I didn't get that. But she's actually—she's not a cusser. Okay. She's like, "Well, if what's up is those are the feelings you're having, then I know what the assignment is. I sit by you. I am available to you. I am a presence with you." That is how the two of you do it, and she is very clear that that's what she's supposed to be doing. Again, I'm not a dog expert, but what I have come to learn communicating with dogs is, well, they take jobs. There's different kinds of working dogs, right? They take jobs. And this is her job, is—it's a job she likes. It's a job she's a fan of.

                        But then you're like, "Nope. Bye." And that's kind of all you say. So you actually very effectively communicate until it's time to send her off. And so, for her, she feels like that's a mixed message. She feels like that's a self-harm or a dishonesty from you. And whether or not that's true—because you have a lot more of a big picture—from her perspective, in her world, you've centered to this place that you don't go for a reason.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            And her job with your daughter feels like a distraction from her job with you.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            Also, is she left alone in the house a fair amount at your ex's?

Carmen:          He works from home, so he's there. But I don't think—maybe he doesn't give her a lot of attention.

Jessica:            He doesn't on purpose engage with her.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Also, he doesn't really communicate with her. You could go for hours staring at something and not talking to your dog, but you're still aware of her presence, communicating with her, aware of her humanity, essentially, right?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            He's not that person. He's not. He could be, but he's not. She doesn't like it there. I mean, she doesn't hate it there, but she doesn't like it there.

Carmen:          Yeah. I figured that. I mean, there have been some behaviors that she does at his house that she doesn't do at my house.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Will you say your daughter's full name again?

Carmen:          Okay. [redacted].

Jessica:            Okay. So I do think it's really important that she doesn't lose her dog. That feels really important. She really kind of needs Coco.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Are you and her dad snuggly people? Are you snuggly with her?

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            With your daughter? Yeah.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            And does she snuggle Coco?

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Carmen:          As much as she can—

Jessica:            Yeah. Coco doesn't love snuggling, but she loves your daughter enough to tolerate snuggling, which is—

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            —love from Coco. So listen. You and I need to discuss what you want to communicate to Coco. And then I will communicate it, and then you and I will discuss how you can be more consistent with your messaging—

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            —because you are giving her a mixed message, and she's like you. She's like, "Well, in the absence of a clear path, I'd rather do the thing I want to do."

Carmen:          Yeah. I mean, I think that there are—what we would communicate to her, I would—surely, there's something we have to communicate to her today, but the outcome or what might change is on the table. If it is like, okay, well, would my daughter be supported by any dog, could Coco live with me 100 percent of the time?

Jessica:            And then Dad gets his own dog?

Carmen:          If that works for him, yes.

Jessica:            Is he open to that?

Carmen:          I think it would be a hard sell.

Jessica:            What about a cat?

Carmen:          Maybe.

Jessica:            I feel like he's more of a cat guy.

Carmen:          Yeah. Okay.

Jessica:            I don't think he wants to walk a dog.

Carmen:          Yeah, he does not want to walk a dog.

Jessica:            No.

Carmen:          That's his big complaint.

Jessica:            Yeah. I see that. I do think that if your daughter went with her dad and they picked out a cat, but first, there was all kinds of buildup of what kind of a cat, what are cats like, what would we name the cat—if there was, I would say, about a month buildup so she doesn't lose focus, but it's enough for her to be in a child fever pitch, and then she and her dad went—you could be there; you could not be there—to pick out a cat—I feel like, for him, you would have to not be there, although I feel like the two of you could agree as adults that you would be there. I don't know that that would be best for him.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            And you want him to be happy with the cat. I would say, for her, the larger the cat, the better, because she gets comfort from her head on body.

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. So a kitten—she wouldn't be able to do that, right? So an adult cat would probably be best.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            And your ex would not handle a senior cat. So we're talking about a large cat, ideally speaking, and one that is somewhere in the one-and-a-half to three-year-old range. Now, I don't know how much control you have over such things with your ex, but that's the advice. That would work for her because then she would be like, "I have two pets. I have these two relationships." And a cat not only would work better for her dad, but I actually think she would enjoy the difference. "This is my house where I have a dog. This is how we take care of a dog. This is my house where I have a cat. This is how we take care of the cat." I think that would work for her.

                        But in the meantime, even if you talk to your ex when you and I get off this conversation and he agrees instantly, which is not going to happen, but if he agreed immediately—I mean, he could. He could, but that's—he deserves to think about whether or not he wants a cat. So you'd still have like a month, at least, of your dog still going home. So I do think we need to communicate with her about the situation.

                        So hold on for just one second. I mean, she just doesn't want to go there. I told her that her job when you're not there is to take care of the child. She understands that is her job.

Carmen:          But she doesn't love the job?

Jessica:            It's that she understands that her primary job is taking care of you, so she doesn't 100 percent believe that that's her job.

Carmen:          And so who gave her that job, to take care of me?

Jessica:            You.

Carmen:          I did?

Jessica:            Yes. You. The two of you bonded in this particular way, and you were just so consistent with her. You're consistently communicating with her in a way that you don't communicate with the humans in the house.

Carmen:          Probably, yeah.

Jessica:            So you have a very rich interior life, eh?

Carmen:          I do, yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yes. And so, on the surface, you're saying x to your daughter. You're saying y to your husband. But interiorly, there's constant conversations and action and all that kind of stuff, and Coco is the person you share that with.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            And you always have. Did you get her as a puppy?

Carmen:          No. She was eight years old. She was rehomed.

Jessica:            Okay, because she feels very mature to me.

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            I'm like, this doesn't seem—and perhaps, in part, she already had an adult relationship, so she was just like, "Who is my adult?" It's not that she doesn't like kids. It's that she prefers adults.

Carmen:          Yeah. I think she was previously with an adult woman.

Jessica:            That makes sense to me. But that's not the reason why she likes you. She doesn't like you because you're an adult woman. She likes you because of the kind of adult woman you are. I see, if I'm the one who adopted her, she would have had a different reaction to me than she does to you because I'm very verbal, and I move unpredictably. She does not prefer those two things. I have lots of intonations in my voice. She does not prefer that. She does not prefer that, which is part of why she had a tentative reaction to me when I first started talking to her, because I kind of came in talking. And she's—that's not your way, is it? Your way is to feel it out as you come in. That's her vibe.

                        And your daughter is unpredictable. She's a child. Children are unpredictable. That's not her preference.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            That's not Coco's preference. Now, does that mean that that's a problem for her? No. It's just that, according to Coco, you have communicated so consistently, so clearly, about who you are and what your relationship with her is and how much you love her and need her and like her and how supportive she is to you and how much you're invested in her wellness—you've done such a good job communicating, but somehow you don't completely understand that you've done that job?

Carmen:          No, I don't at all.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. It's because—do you work in front of the computer?

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. And are you working from home as well?

Carmen:          Half of the week, I do.

Jessica:            Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense because she's showing me you sitting in front of the computer, and you are thinking about your tasks, but you're also talking to her all the time.

Carmen:          Yeah, and I pet her while I work, and—yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Yes. So you, in your very human way, are like, "Yeah, I'm talking to her," but you don't take it that seriously. But you are literally talking to her, and it is her world. And she's taking it very seriously.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so she is communicating back with you. Now, are you always picking up what she's putting down? No, because human. Human on computer. But you are having a back and forth, which is why, when you're not overthinking it, you feel supported and held and soothed in your dynamic with your dog, because you are like, "Fuck. Something happened, and I gotta figure this thing out." And she's just like, "Oh. Something happened. We have to figure this out." And then, all of a sudden, you feel a little better because you're like, "Oh, I'm not alone."

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            And it just soothes this itch in your psyche. So it's not like you're thinking about it that way, but that's what's happening, which is why you always turn for her, right? It's why you always—emotionally and energetically, you're aware of where she is in a space. You're aware of what she's doing and how she's feeling. That's called communication.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            That's you receiving as much as it is you giving, right? And so you have an easy, clean, effective, mutually beneficial relationship. It's great. And then you're like, "Okay. Bye." You do not communicate efficiently about it, so that's something for you to sit with, is, "Oh. Wow. I know how to communicate about my feelings and my needs, but I don't know how to communicate"—you're not giving her an assignment. You haven't given her an assignment. You're just like, "This is going to have to be how it is. Bye."

Carmen:          Okay. So, if I were to verbally say, "Okay, and now you're going to"—

Jessica:            The problem is you don't mean it. That's the problem. The problem is you don't mean it. The problem is—okay. Let me show you because you have said those things. You actually already have done that, eh?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            You've been like, "Okay. We're packing"—you've said it to your child in front of Coco, with Coco. I mean, you've done that. But you don't mean it. You don't mean it, and that is what she's—that's like the first thing I told you. She doesn't believe you mean it. When you tell her to go, emotionally, you don't want her to go. You don't believe that's the best thing. You think it's the best thing for your child. You know your husband isn't preferring it. You know you're not preferring it. You know the dog is not preferring it. You're communicating that to her.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            She knows. So she's like, "Yeah, this is not a 10 out of 10." And you're like, "Girl, we all know this isn't a 10 out of 10. Bye. See you in a week."

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            And this is the fucking hard thing about communicating with animals, is you cannot lie to your animal. There she is. There's our girl. You cannot lie to your animal friend. I mean, it's very hard to, which is why it's hard to bring them to the vet. It's why it's hard to sneak things up on them, because they can feel it. Oh, she's a sweetheart. Okay. So she's saying, yeah, but you don't want her to go. So, the whole time she's away from you, she knows that you don't want her to go. She believes this. So I don't know if you feel that this is accurate.

Carmen:          I'm a little torn on it because I do think having her be here all the time does add a lot of logistical challenges—

Jessica:            Of course.

Carmen:          —to my independent time when I don't have my daughter.

Jessica:            Yeah. You used a lot of thinking language when you said that, right?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            So this is the thing that's fucking you up, is that when you're communicating with a dog, you are not communicating, "Oh, well, I'm aware of the logistical"—blah, blah, blah. What you're communicating with her is, "Oh my God. I'm exhausted. I feel overwhelmed." And when she leaves, you're showing her almost a collapse into yourself.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            You're not showing her, "Oh, I'm thriving in self-care." You're showing her something that she sees in you day-to-day and she supports you through, how you collapse into yourself.

Carmen:          That's so interesting because I do think, when I have her, I have my daughter and I am overwhelmed. And I have the sensory overload and the logistical overload. So, yeah, when I have her, I am collapsing in on myself. And when I don't have her, I am serene, and my nervous system is regulated. But she doesn't see that—

Jessica:            She doesn't.

Carmen:          —because she's not here.

Jessica:            No. And she sees when she's leaving, which—nobody goes from "I'm overwhelmed" to "I'm serene" in a blink of a heart, right? I mean, unless we're talking about extreme situations. But what is it that you want to communicate to her?

Carmen:          That I am okay when she's not with me and that I don't think I need her as much as she thinks I do, in the way that she thinks I do. I don't know. I don't want her to feel unloved by that.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Also, she won't believe it because—

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            —this is the thing. You have a tendency to intellectualize your feelings a little bit, eh?

Carmen:          Yeah. I've been working on it a lot over the past few years, but I think it is my natural default. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. So does she. She thinks that. I mean, she showed me that.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            So you want to tell her that you feel just fine when you're alone, and she has a theory about that.

Carmen:          Okay. That it's incorrect?

Jessica:            It's that nothing is anchoring you into yourself, and so you're not feeling your feelings. She feels that you're, like, out. Dogs are so visceral. They tend to be really in their bodies. And us humans—we spend a lot of times out of our bodies, up in the ether, in our imaginations, in our heads—whatever. And she feels that you are a person who kind of struggles to stay in. And she feels, whether or not she's right—our friends are not always right about their analysis about what's up with us. But she feels that—some of the time, that you feel like, "Oh, I'm great. Everything's great." It's just because you're really checked out of yourself.

                        And she feels that you're not safe when you're checked out of yourself, again, because she's a dog. Dogs are present, and they defend. I don't think she's wrong, and I think you're not wrong. I think that both of these things are true. So what I don't know and I don't know if it's necessary to know is, is she 90 percent wrong, 10 percent right? Is she 50/50 right? Are you 50/50 right? And also, you're an adult human woman. You're like, "Yeah, life is hard sometimes. Sometimes I'm in a good mood. Sometimes I'm in a bad mood. I'm going through a divorce, so I'm supposed to feel these hard feelings. And that's okay."

                        And she doesn't know about the news. Nobody's told her about the climate crisis or about the current regime. So she's just tracking you, right?

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So I don't want to say, because this is what she perceives and this is her take, that it is an empirical truth. It's not that simple. And I'm also—because she's so tuned in to your emotions, I can see that some of what you're saying about, "Well, when they're gone, I'm great," is actually not completely true. It's a truth. It's not the only truth.

Carmen:          Yeah. Well, I think that when they're gone, I spend a lot of time in my emotions. And to me, that is great, even though it's heavy.

Jessica:            Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Yes. It's what you need. You need the space to just be a person in your feelings.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            And as your protector and your companion, she's like, "Oh no. You're going through that alone. That's not right. I should be there for that."

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            And that's a kind, loving impulse that she has. And you've nurtured a relationship with her that would suggest that you're okay with that impulse, or at least to her. So all of this to say relationships are messy and complicated, right? That is just what's true. And some of this is going to, best-case scenario, be a little messy. Does she want to go between houses? No. Does she want to be at his house? No. Does he want her at his house? No. There's nothing I can communicate to her that's going to change these realities, right?

Is she being tortured or harmed by this setup? Also no. Worse for her than leaving you and her relationship with your daughter is that he doesn't want her there, and he's very clear about that with her. He tolerates her, you know?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            This is a guy who does the right thing. He's a decent man. But he doesn't want her there. You're the one who ended this relationship?

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, this is very clear when I look at him because this is a thing that he's doing for you. It's your dog.

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            And part of him is resentful and hurt and defensive, and it kind of gets put at the dog—better the dog than the daughter, but it does kind of get put at the dog—

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            —whereas you could ask him to get a cat, but the more I look at this, the more I'm like—honestly, he would be benefited by having a cat, but if it's your suggestion, it's sticky.

Carmen:          Yes. Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so how is he about this—

Carmen:          That is, if he listens to this, it's not my suggestion.

Jessica:            That's what I was about to ask. Exactly. Exactly. So would he listen to this?

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            Is he open to this? Okay. Great. Great, great, great.

Carmen:          I'm sure he'd be very interested in it. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. But he would have to really make it his project with his child.

Carmen:          Yeah. And I think that he could find a lot of joy and meaning in that.

Jessica:            I think it would be good for him because he's not prepared to do this alone. He doesn't want to do this alone. And it would be kind of an acknowledgment of him building his own life with his daughter without you, which he's not super stoked on. I'm sorry.

Carmen:          Just—yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think—and he has started to do that.

Jessica:            Sure. Of course. He's an adult, and he's adaptable, and he's a decent person. And if you said, "The answer is no," he's not going to sit around trying to force the answer to be a yes. And also, all of these things I am seeing through your dog, who has this very emotional relationship to the two of you because she's your dog and because she's a dog. I mean, according to Coco, if you're in your head and a little woop-de-doop with your emotions, that guy is like a DOS prompt computer. He's super—

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Carmen:          Absolutely.

Jessica:            Is he into old computers? Is he also into—

Carmen:          Yes, very much. Very, very gear, computer—

Jessica:            Okay.

Carmen:          —and that was one of the disconnects, was—

Jessica:            Of course.

Carmen:          —our emotional processing.

Jessica:            Yes. Radically different. Radically different. And at one point, it was much more similar, but you changed.

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And I would say that the way he changed was that he dug in his heels and resisted change, and that was what changed him. And he really does want to be a good co-parent, and he wants to be a good dad. And he is not a bad guy. He is not a bad guy. But he's also not a great match with Coco—

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            —because she does yearn for emotional connection. She doesn't yearn for a whole lot of attention, but she wants emotional connection, which makes sense, again, given your nature and how you are, that that's a perfect match for her.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So hold on for just a second, okay? Let me just hang out with her for a moment here. The problem is—so she's alone in the house with him, and your daughter is at school or daycare or something like that, right?

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            So there's all these hours in a day where she's just like, "What the fuck am I doing here?" And I'm assuming that's where—again, she doesn't cuss. I apologize. She just doesn't like cussing. It's very strange. I wonder if the person who was her person before was kind of like a puritanical person or something. You know what I mean? So she doesn't have a task. Does she like going for walks? Does she have a dog walker?

Carmen:          She doesn't have a dog walker, but that's her favorite thing. She loves going for walks.

Jessica:            And does she like other dogs? Is she okay with other dogs?

Carmen:          Not so much. That's a touchy one.

Jessica:            Okay, because I wonder if you could afford, on the days where she's with your ex, sending in a dog walker in the middle of the day when your daughter is at school. This might help with the behaviors because she's literally sitting around in the house. Is she going out in a backyard to do her business or something?

Carmen:          No, he takes her on walks.

Jessica:            He doesn't enjoy it. He doesn't connect to her.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            And listen. This doesn't make him a bad person or anything. They don't have a close relationship. They have accepted it about each other. This is not a great relationship. So, yeah, this will get worse. The behaviors and stuff will get worse, for sure, because she's not a wallflower. She's a person. And this is a way that—and this is not just you or your ex; this is what humans do a lot—is you're like, "Yes, of course she's a person. And also, she's a dog. She's not really a person." And so it is getting communicated to her, "You're just a dog, and I have to walk you"—

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            —as opposed to, "You're a person. Let's connect. Hey, you and I are going to go for a walk together." It's more like, "Oh, I have to do this thing for you." I have a robot thing. It's like a square—

Carmen:          Vacuum. Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            —vacuum. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I turn it on, and then also, it gets stuck places, and I pick it up and I move it. And I have to clean it, and I have to turn it off, and I have to charge it. That's kind of like what he's doing with the dog and what you sometimes do with your dog.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            "It's this object that I need to maintain." I think, a lot of times, people do that with animals. I think, a lot of times, when people have children, they don't have extra energy, and then they're more likely to do that with animals. And it almost never is consensual, from my experience.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            It's like nobody wants to be treated like an object to be maintained. And your ex, for sure, is doing that with her. And some of that is because he is stewarding his ex's bestie dog, and he doesn't even want to be exes. So it's just like a pain in the ass is what it is.

Hold on. Let me just talk to her again. Hold on. So here's the problem I'm running into, is I can tell her, "Okay. When the child is there, your job is to protect the child." She actually understands that. The child is just not there—

Carmen:          Most of the time.

Jessica:            —most of the time.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            That's the problem. And it would just be too much contact between you and him if, in the middle of the day, you walked the dog. It just doesn't—it's not a realistic approach.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            So she's bored. She's not particularly engaged. She's not enriched. Meanwhile, out there is you with your emotions, and she doesn't know what you're doing with them. And she would like to tether you to this earth with love, and she can't do that. And she's sitting around sitting on her thumbs—were she to have them. She's a person, not an object. So this is the problem—

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            —which means I'm not sure what to tell her because—

Carmen:          I know.

Jessica:            —she understands the assignment. She does understand the assignment with your daughter. The daughter's not there.

Carmen:          Yeah. I mean, there are certainly conversations I need to have with my ex. I think that we've come to a point where we can assess, "Hey, this isn't really working out," for him, for her, for—I don't think I would really say for me, but I would say for Coco and for him, it's not working out.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's not.

Carmen:          I think there are still decisions we have to make about how we move forward. But it has come up before. He has brought up the conversation of, "Should we consider you having Coco all the time?" So it's not going to be a surprise.

Jessica:            You know, she needs nothing. She wants for nothing. She is a happy dog. You are a really good person for her to be—her person. There is a way that you feel pressure to be emotionally present for her. You have this tendency to try to control your environment so that you can let go of control, so that you can be messy. And she is an impossible factor to control because she's a living person. And sometimes you are soothed by that, and then sometimes you feel like, "Oh, I can't completely be myself or be where I'm at because there's this person here." She is showing me that about you, and she's like, "And that's your problem."

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            It's not true it's your problem. Your problem is, "I can only feel my feelings under these controlled circumstances." And so she's showing me that to show to you, because you're actually—you're a parent. You know that your child can feel her feelings even in a windstorm when it's raining, and she can just feel her feelings even if it's chaos. Right?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            That's okay. In fact, it's the best way to move through your feelings, is to feel them, right? You're a parent. You know that.

Carmen:          Yes.

Jessica:            So do I have to say it? You have to do that for you. You have to do that for you. Modeling this is the best way to teach it to your child.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            And so, when you say, "Okay. Bye, Coco. See you in a week," and there's this relief inside of you that, "Oh. Okay. I don't have to take care of anyone," she understands that as a symptom of this larger problem that is your problem that she's trying to help you through. Does this make sense?

Carmen:          And then my problem is I don't need to control. I don't need a very certain circumstance to—

Jessica:            Feel your feelings. Whether it's happiness or sadness, it doesn't matter. It's not like you're like, "Oh, I'm only able to feel anger when I'm completely alone." It's all of the feelings. It's all of the feelings. And so she's just like, "Okay." So, when you feel relieved that there's no pressure to be around other living beings, and therefore, you can feel your feelings, she's like, "Oh no. Here we go again." That's her being concerned for you. That thing of—earlier, she was showing it to me as you kind of collapsing in on yourself. Now, that's a specific thing you do. But what I'm describing now is a different version of that, ultimately. It's relying on this old coping mechanism—old as in from your childhood—when she's like, "Or you could just feel your feelings. That's cool." You know?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. "Or you could just feel your feelings." She's such a good friend to you because she gets you. Because she gets you. And she's not trying to change you. She's just trying to be like, "Or…" She just is like, "I have to track you all the time," which is partially just because she's a dog, right? But she feels like, "Okay. I have to track you all the time to see what you're doing, to make sure that you're not doing that thing that you're doing all the time," so therefore, she has to be there all the time. Right? But that's like bestie behavior. That's bestie behavior, you know? And the only reason why you don't have that in the reverse is because of this pattern inside of you, is that, "I can't take care of myself if there's someone around me that I have to take care of. It's not possible."

Carmen:          Oh, absolutely.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Carmen:          That's how it feels.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so she wants you to know that that's wrong.

Carmen:          Okay. That's going to be a lot of work to change, but—

Jessica:            Yeah.

Carmen:          —no, it's a simple—

Jessica:            You're already working on it. You're already working on it.

Carmen:          I am.

Jessica:            You're just working on it at the pace that you know how to work on it at. But because you're going through this divorce and because you are a parent, it's a really important thing for you to work on, really, really important, because being able to say to your child, "I am sad. These are the things that I try to do when I'm sad, and sometimes I'm still sad," and to actually have the energy behind it of it being an authentic thing instead of a thing that you read in a book, so you say it to your kid—that's transformational for a kid like her who does have emotional attachment issues, right?

Carmen:          I don't know.

Jessica:            That's fascinating. You don't know?

Carmen:          I don't know if she has emotional attachment issues.

Jessica:            Do you see the way she is with your dog?

Carmen:          Yes. She's loved dogs since she was a four-month-old child.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Carmen:          I just thought it was her love of dogs.

Jessica:            Interesting. It is her love of dogs, and why a love of dogs? Because they make her feel safe, because they're such simple, uncomplicated love presence. So she has these two very in-their-head parents.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            And then she has a dog.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            So practicing being more like Coco or more like a dog in general, where you're like, "I'm here. I'm here physically and also emotionally, and sometimes that means I am in emotions I don't know what to do with"—you're allowed to do that with your kid. I mean, you don't want to put it on your kid and ask your kid to fix it for you. You're the adult. But being transparent about, "I woke up tired today, and I'm just tired all day. Do you ever have tired days?"—sharing with her your journey to identify emotions and allow yourself to experience emotions is right alongside her learning curve as a seven-year-old. It's perfect, actually. This is when you learned how to not feel your emotions, when you were her age, right?

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            Timing is perfect. Timing is perfect. So what do we do with kids? We tell them name the emotion so that you can start to cope with the emotion. So you do the same thing. Name the emotion so you can cope with the emotion.

Your dog is very happy we are having this conversation.

Carmen:          Really?

Jessica:            Yes. She's showing me you are making connections right now through this—you're clicking it in different contexts right now, right? She's showing me that because you're showing her that. You're communicating with your dog. And so she's really happy because it's like you feel like you have to carry all of the kitchen appliances in your purse everywhere you go, and when you make these connections, you're like, "Okay. Well, maybe the Vitamix can go on the counter. Maybe the bread maker can sit in the kitchen. I don't have to carry the heaviest appliances with me." There's something that you're laying some burden down.

                        Obviously, the kitchen metaphor was mine and not hers. But she was just showing me there's this responsibility which is connected to vigilance, rigidity, self-protection, protecting others, and it's just a lot of weight. It's just a lot of weight. So do you ever give her bones that take forever to chew?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. She's showing me to tell you that just because the bone takes a really long time to chew doesn't mean it's a bad bone, and it doesn't mean it's a bad gift. She's basically like, "This is going to take some time."

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            This process for you. And she's just like, "And that's what the bone is." It's inherent to the bone, is it takes time.

Carmen:          That's beautiful.

Jessica:            Yeah. It is. It is. I mean, I've said prettier words, but the metaphor really works.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            And she just loves those bones, right?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And she's showing me that sometimes she just hangs out with it and protects it because she doesn't want to be—

Carmen:          Oh yeah.

Jessica:            —eating it, but she wants to be guarding it.

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You get to do that with your emotions. Sometimes you're not ready or willing to make any changes or growth, so you just hang out where you are. You don't have to constantly be chewing the bone. You just have to be aware of it, just aware of where it's at—

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            —which means being in your body, basically. Right?

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            She has this thing that she does where she looks at you with this attentive little face—do you know what I'm talking about?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Where she seems like she's doing it kind of out of nowhere? It's not like you've done something physical. She just does that with you.

Carmen:     Yeah.

Jessica:      That's a shift in your presence in your body.

Carmen:     Okay. Interesting.

Jessica:            She's noticing a shift in you emotionally. So maybe you've just flown out of your body. Maybe something's happened inside of you. But she's noticing a shift, a meaningful tonal change. That's the way to put it. A meaningful tonal change. And it's not bad, and it's not good. But at that point, you want to look for the bone. "Where's the bone? Am I tracking my emotions? Am I present with my emotions?" And if the answer is, "I have fucking no idea," that's fine. You don't have to always know. You don't always have to be making progress. It's just she's showing me that that's a thing that happens between the two of you. She looks at you; she's like, "What just"—and you're always like, "I don't know." You're always like, "What is it? I don't know." And that's okay. But now you know what she's trying to communicate, right?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            Are there any other questions you want me to answer?

Carmen:          I don't think so. I think it's been very revealing because I feel like I have done so much work in the past two years to be in my body and feel my feelings, but it is when I'm alone. It's not when my daughter is with me.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Carmen:          And so that's a big realization for me.

Jessica:            Yeah. And for whatever it's worth, you're going to work on your core shit until you leave this mortal coil—you and me both. All of us, right? So, if in ten years, you've spent ten solid years working on this, and you talk to some psychic or something and they pick it up, it's not like, oh, therefore you haven't done the work, or therefore you haven't made progress. It's just like, oh, this is like your core thing. And there's no way you could have worked on this and been super fluid with all of your emotions in all contexts. That's just not your nature.

                        So you work with your nature to make the best of your nature, and starting with figuring out how to feel your emotions alone is the right move. You did the right thing. You're doing the right thing. You just don't want to get stuck there.

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            You don't want to tell yourself that that's the only thing. The bone takes a long time to chew. You hang out with the bone. That's the—you know. And the more that you share your emotions with your daughter, the safer she'll feel. Now, that's not an unqualified statement. There are lots of ways of sharing your emotions with your daughter that would be really bad for her, right?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            The magic of parenting. It's so complicated. But finding ways of naming feelings and practice being in your body around the feelings is a good practice. And do the two of you watch Wizard of Oz together?

Carmen:          Wicked. We've watched Wicked.

Jessica:            Wicked. Yeah, no—

Carmen:          We haven't watched Wizard of Oz.

Jessica:            Maybe it's time.

Carmen:          Okay.

Jessica:            Okay? Because you want to practice not being the Great and Powerful Oz.

Carmen:          Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You want to let your kid get to know the man behind the projection of the big-ass head. You know what I'm saying?

Carmen:          Yeah.

Jessica:            That's just something to—let that movie be a great metaphor.

Carmen:          Yeah. That resonates.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what kid doesn't like that movie? I mean, maybe kids don't like that movie. I don't know. Maybe it's a scary movie. I don't know. But it's something for you to—maybe you watch it alone and gauge whether or not it's appropriate for her based on her personality and all the things. But that is a place to go for you. Yeah.

Carmen:          Okay. I have a lot of places to go from this conversation.

Jessica:            You do. You do have a lot of places to go. And I really—I hope—I mean, I hope your ex gets a cat for him, not just for Coco and for you. But I hope it all works as smoothly and gracefully as humanly possible.

Carmen:          Thank you. Thank you, Jessica, truly.

Jessica:            My pleasure.