May 07, 2025
527: Should I Make Amends to My Mother-in-Law?
Listen
Read
Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.
Jessica: Lucy, welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?
Lucy: All right. Thank you so much for having me, Jessica. I'm going to read my question, and it goes like this. "I have been sober and a member of AA for almost five years at the end of May."
Jessica: Congratulations.
Lucy: Thank you so much. "I've made almost all of my amends, with the big exception being to my mother-in-law. I know I have had a part in the deterioration of our relationship. She has narcissistic tendencies and has continued to reoffend with microaggressions and continual critical evaluations of my progress and decisions, mostly by way of her son. I've been advised a couple different directions, but part of what I often hear is that I'll be more free for having done so; I should clear my side of the street and clear the wreckage of my past. My concern is that I'll be opening myself up to being further torn down and essentially make myself a sitting duck. I'm having a hard time even humanizing her or getting an objective perspective, but I do want to find peace around this. Any insights you have so I can put this behind me would be so helpful. Absolutely love you and adore your work, Jessica."
Jessica: Thank you. That's very sweet. And I'm going to share your birth info. That's cool, right?
Lucy: Yep, that's cool.
Jessica: Okay. October 16, 1990, in Lincoln, Nebraska, at 5:20 p.m. Let's dive in. Okay. I have a couple contextualizing questions. So you've been sober for five years?
Lucy: Yes.
Jessica: How long have you been with your husband?
Lucy: Since 2012, so 12-ish years.
Jessica: 12 years. Okay. Great.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Is he also sober?
Lucy: He stopped drinking shortly before I did because of my drinking. He continued using weed, which was his main primary substance or way of checking out. And I didn't care for weed. So he recently gave up weed, though.
Jessica: Okay.
Lucy: I think he has like 60 days weed-free.
Jessica: Okay.
Lucy: So he's totally sober now.
Jessica: So he's not an addict. He's not like a sober person, but he doesn't drink. He's not like a trigger with drinking or anything like that?
Lucy: No.
Jessica: Okay. And then you're in-program, right? You're in AA?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: I love AA. I mean, I think there's a lot of problems with AA. There's a lot of problems with everything. But I love how Plutonian it is. It's like everything about AA is like an exercise in Pluto. So, as an astrologer, I'm kind of obsessed with it. And related to that, I am a huge fan of the concept of amends. Huge fan. And it sounds like you've made amends with everyone but this person.
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. So there's two questions that stand out to me.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: The first is, how—is she in the same town as you? Does she come to your house every week? How involved in your life is this person on a day-to-day?
Lucy: Okay. She sees our children once a week on Sundays, and that is through her son. Otherwise, she is very minimally involved. I have ceased really engaging with her if at all possible. And she is our only closest family member in town. Everybody else is at least an hour away, if not further.
Jessica: So she sees your kids—two kids? Three kids?
Lucy: Two kids.
Jessica: Two kids. Two kids—is she taking them to church on Sunday? Is that what it is?
Lucy: She used to. Now she—yeah, she just keeps them.
Jessica: She just hangs out with them.
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. And so are the two of you cordial, and you just, like, "Hey, what's up?" and keep moving? Or do you actively not talk?
Lucy: We are civil.
Jessica: Civil. Okay.
Lucy: Yeah. It is cordial. Yeah.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay.
Lucy: As diplomatic as possible.
Jessica: Sure. That's a great word for it. And I will speak to the astrology of that word in just a moment. You wait. Okay. And then the other question I have is, was there a moment of beef? Was there something that you did that you would need to make amends for?
Lucy: The tricky part about the amends is it's more—we never had a big blowout situation. It's more because of her hearing about the dynamic of what was happening while I was still struggling with my addiction after the kids were born. So he, my partner, would use her as a vent, trying to get her support or encouragement, I guess, or her to commiserate with him, if anything, about what was going on. And so I think that there's just a lot of buildup from maybe me scaring her in regards to—like I would drive drunk with the kids. That's an example where it's like I would essentially be making amends for putting her family in danger, right?
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
Lucy: But it's not like I specifically did anything to her directly. It's all out of circumstance.
Jessica: Right. So, basically, whatever beef the two of you have, it's because your partner told his mom what was happening, and she became, I'm assuming, passive-aggressively more and more upset with you as opposed to ever confronting you.
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay.
Lucy: The only time she's confronted me, it's more about other activities, like after I got sober, it was a really angry text about how I don't have the right sponsor for me, how I'm not spending our money appropriately—
Jessica: Oh my.
Lucy: —how I don't keep the house the way that it should be.
Jessica: Wow.
Lucy: Things like that. So it's like all of these outside issues that probably, again, are things that he used to bring to her.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. And to those things—do you ignore them? Do you respond? It sounds like it stays in the passive-aggressive realm.
Lucy: Yeah. I don't think I ever have had a conversation about it.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. Okay. And I gotta ask about your husband, right? How is his relationship with her?
Lucy: That's like a super complicated—
Jessica: I bet. It sounds loaded. Yeah.
Lucy: It's weird because they had a horrible relationship when he was growing up. He's bi, and he was dating men at the time, and she kicked him out. So they had, really, a lot of trouble there. And then, since he's been in his 20s/30s, they've slowly grown closer, and I think because of all the little ways that she tries to help him specifically as it doesn't relate to me, he leans on that kind of stuff, like she'll let him borrow her car or she'll bring him food or something. She'll watch the kids, essentially, so that he can go do stuff.
Jessica: But she watches the kids for him and not for the two of you?
Lucy: Right. Yeah.
Jessica: Specifically. So the reason why I'm asking about his relationship with her—because part of this is 100 percent about you. Part of this is about your relationship with this person who's in your family, like it or not. And part of this is about how your husband does or does not include you, protect you, and advocate for you as his family. Right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So I gotta just name we're going to have to come around to that last bit, unfortunately, because I'm guessing you don't want to talk about it since you didn't ask me that question.
Lucy: Yeah. A little bit.
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: A little bit.
[crosstalk].
Lucy: —that he might not have a glowing review.
Jessica: Yeah. He might get a fucking earful. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I agree with everything you're saying. So let me pull back for a minute. In your birth chart, you have got two interceptions. And so, when I refer to interceptions in the birth chart—and how hard do you fuck with astrology? Do you know what an interception is?
Lucy: I know a lot, but interceptions are like my one glaring blank spot.
Jessica: Do you know what—professional astrologers with 30 years' experience don't fuck with interceptions. You can't know everything is what I'm trying to say. And you only get them if you use—I mean, you can get them with many house systems, but I use Campanus houses, which tends to kind of generate lots of them. But in your birth chart, you've got—I would refer to it as two interceptions because one interception means it's happening in two houses.
So, basically, you've got Aquarius in your twelfth house, intercepted in your twelfth house, which means you've got Leo intercepted in your sixth. We're not going to talk about that right now. Instead, we're going to talk about how you have fucking Aries intercepted in your first house and Libra with your Libra stellium of planets. You've got Moon, Venus, Mercury, and the Sun all in Libra intercepted in your seventh house. I'm guessing you started drinking young.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: I think I was 15.
Jessica: That Libra stellium intercepted in your seventh house makes it so hard for you to show up in relationships with other people as yourself because there is this fear—and this is deep in your family line—around being iced out or dealing with some sort of repercussion or consequence for being yourself and having needs. Does that track?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And so the pattern for you is, "I'll just show up for the people. I'll just try to be there for other people." And how do you do that without being drunk? It's very hard to do that all the time, right?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Because it's an abandonment of self. Right? It's a deep abandonment of self. And does this come out of your dad's side of the family or your mom's?
Lucy: You know, not sure I could say with 100 percent—maybe my mom's. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Your dad is kind of restrictive and heavy-handed?
Lucy: No. I feel like my mom is more so, but my mom is always doing for others. It seems like she can't focus on herself, and she's always focusing on everybody else around her. But my dad is very withdrawn or absent in his own way. He lived in the basement for the majority of my childhood, if that makes sense, and would immediately retreat to the basement kind of situation.
Jessica: There's a part of me that's so tempted to get into that, but I want to really honor your question because this is a very serious thing, and it's not about your mother-in-law, although it is about your mother-in-law. And it's not about sobriety, even though it is about sobriety. It's really about how to navigate your needs without diminishing yourself. And one of your needs is to have fucking peace. One of your needs is to be in this marriage. And he apparently comes with her, right?
And one of these needs is to figure out—this is just like a brambly—I'm looking at it energetically, and I'm getting wrapped up in it because it's so brambly. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, if you were to make amends to this woman—and we will call her Karen—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —just for the moment. If you were to make amends to Karen, what would it be? Do you know? Do you know what you would say?
Lucy: I don't even know that I—and I've never tried to write it down, which I think shows—
Jessica: Yep.
Lucy: —my degree of willingness at the moment.
Jessica: Yeah. Okay. Let me ask a different question.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: You have a sponsor, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: If your sponsor was writing an amends for you to make to Karen, what do you think your sponsor would say you needed to say?
Lucy: And it's weird because she has not advised me. I've had two different sponsors, and one has advised me to do it, and one has advised me—
Jessica: Not to?
Lucy: —against it for right now, considering the circumstances, like when I wrote the question.
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: I think that I would apologize for putting her in a place of fear and for not having been responsible during this period of, essentially, my kids' early childhood.
Jessica: Thank you for sharing that.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: So here's the problem. I just want to acknowledge how activating this is in your body. Okay. I'm going to speak to the amends thing in a second, but I just want to acknowledge that sobriety is so hard, not just because of the quitting of the substance that you had a compulsive relationship to, but because—we're not talking about being a dry drunk, like not using a substance. We're talking about being sober requires that you navigate emotions that are so hard.
I had a friend who was sober once, and she said to me the worst thing you can ever say to a sober person is, "You feel"—and fill in the blank. She was just like, "Any emotion is just like, ahh, don't put that on me."
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And so I want to acknowledge that, and I want to acknowledge that this situation triggers inside of you all of the deepest, most sticky complexes that you struggle with and that are intertwined with self-destructive behaviors like abusing substances, right—
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: —because in your thinking, there's, "I make amends. I basically apologize to her for doing something that I know I objectively am sorry I did"—right? I can say that on your behalf, right?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: "But I don't want to apologize to her because she doesn't deserve that apology."
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Okay.
Lucy: I think it's because what she's done directly to me feels like it outweighs the things that I did to her indirectly—
Jessica: Correct.
Lucy: —or because of the directness or indirectness, that that is playing a part in my mind.
Jessica: It is. Yes. I saw that when you verbalized the amends thing that you said. I saw that the big problem here is that the way you're thinking about this amends—it's not really about the amends. It's about navigating this fucking relationship, right—
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: —is kind of in your addict's mind. It's in your addict brain. It's like, "Either I do it or I don't do it."
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: "Either I'm wrong or she's wrong." Right? It's like this all-or-nothing Plutonian way of thinking. Here's the reality of the situation. You have a stellium in Libra, and it's fucking intercepted the seventh house. And you have a Pisces Rising. You can be passive-aggressive.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You can be passive-passive. You can just really find yourself—I mean, you have strong opinions.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: It's not like you're not a very big-person personality. You've got a lot to you.
Lucy: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. But when it comes to relating to other people, there's seven million ways that you hold yourself back for diplomacy or out of fear of starting something you don't want to finish, or whatever it is in the moment.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Here's the thing. Part of the relationship that you have with your stepmother is a problem in your marriage, and it's about you and your husband. Sorry. We'll get there. But that's real, and that is part of why the idea of dealing with Karen is so painful and impossible, because you cannot deal with Karen and not deal with your husband.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And some of that, of course, is about you dealing with you, but a lot of it is actually about—you guys have come so far that you're just like, I don't want to fucking—this is like a big rock. I don't know what's under it. I don't want to mess with this." And so you're perpetuating a pattern that you've played out your whole life where you're like, "I'm going to ignore the elephant because there's also a tiger, and I don't want to fuck with the tiger. So I'm not going to bother the elephant in the room."
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. So there's that part, and we'll come back to that. Here's the other part. If you're going to have a conversation with Karen, it can't just be amends. At this point, you're past that. It has to be, "Hey, Karen. Things are tense with us. I want to talk to you about it. Are you comfortable with that?" And if she says, "Tense? What do you mean, tense? I don't know what you mean by tense," then you can say, "Maybe you don't notice it, but I do. And I want to acknowledge that I did this thing and that I've been sober for five years, and I've been making amends every day with my family. And I hope our relationship can improve."
But that's only if she denies it. If she denies it, you can't have a conversation, right? But if she says, "Yes, things are tense between us," or something like that or, "Yes, I'm willing to have a conversation with you," then you have to have a real conversation. And that real conversation is acknowledging this shit happened. You made meaningful, serious mistakes, and she has very valid feelings about it. But you've been sober for five years, and for this whole time, she's treated you increasingly in worse ways. The dynamic from her looks like it's accelerated instead of, over time, she's seen that you're on this path to recovery and that you're a great parent and yada, yada. It's not gotten better. Am I right about that?
Lucy: Yeah. I feel like it's gotten worse.
Jessica: I agree.
Lucy: It's crazy.
Jessica: It's gotten worse, which is—
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: It just—and your participation in that is you're ignoring it. You're like, "There's an elephant in the room, but I'm not focused on the elephant because I'm focused on the tiger," which is you doing what? Doing what you always did, which is trying to keep some sort of fake peace because you're scared of dealing with certain things.
All to say if she's willing to have an actual conversation with you, it's about saying, "Hey, I had a problem, and I made big mistakes. But our relationship is a source of constant discomfort and pain. Do you have something you need to say to me? Is there a way we can work this out?" Be direct.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: This is not your style.
Lucy: No. No. Yeah, I can't even think of an instance—because I've never been close enough to her to be able to be honest like that. And I think that on occasion, I can be that honest with somebody I'm very close with, like my partner, for example. I just feel like I'm trying to defer to him to handle it, and he's still trying to learn [crosstalk].
Jessica: He's not handling it.
Lucy: No.
Jessica: He's not handling it. You're deferring to a husband who's being exceptionally clear he's prioritizing his own comfort.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And he is doing it very clear about what it's doing, which is, if you haven't figured this out yet—what you've described to me and what I can see is that his mother has an oppositional nature. And so you are now the thing that they're pointed against together. So his mom can be mad at you so she's nice to him.
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. If she was to stop being mad at you, she might point that vitriol and intensity at him again. He doesn't want that. So this is a problem with your husband. Your husband is not treating you like family. He's treating you like an interloper in their family, and she's treating you like an interloper in their family.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And that's some bullshit, girl. That's bullshit. I hope you know that. Do you know that? Does that bother you?
Lucy: Yeah. It bothers me.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. Okay. So this sucks, right? It deeply fucking sucks.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And you have a right to be mad and to be hurt and to want better for yourself, may I just say. Now, does he know that that's what is happening? Have you had this conversation with him?
Lucy: We have been able to have that conversation a little bit more recently, where it's been pointed out to him by—he does 12-step [indiscernible 00:19:36] in Al Anon.
Jessica: Great.
Lucy: And his Al Anon sponsor does both programs. And so his sponsor has made it exceptionally clear to him that he's prioritizing his comfort over me—
Jessica: Great.
Lucy: —and that he doesn't have good boundaries with her and he's not telling her the truth. So he does know, and we'll have conversations about that. And then—
Jessica: Wait. Wait. Let me—I have to interrupt real quick.
Lucy: Okay. Go ahead.
Jessica: His sponsor told him; you didn't tell him?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay.
Lucy: I think I've, like, broached the topic, but I haven't said it in that way.
Jessica: You haven't said it directly. Okay. I'm going to give you some homework, okay?
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: Yes, you have a stellium in Libra. Being direct is never going to be your first preference. But here's the homework. You get a dear diary, like a journal of sorts, and I honestly think paper and pen would be better for you than something digital. And you practice writing letters to people—letters to yourself, letters to your husband, letters to Karen, letters to whoever—where you're fucking direct.
Lucy: Oh. Okay.
Jessica: Saturn squares your Sun, your Mercury, and Venus. Channel your inner Capricorn and be fucking direct. Don't worry about feelings, because this is a journaling exercise; it's not a communication exercise.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: Have you ever done anything like that?
Lucy: No. I gave up writing.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. That's kind of a crying shame because you know you're a really good writer. You have the mark of a writer, actually. Were you trying to be a writer at some point in your life?
Lucy: No. I think I wrote some poetry and stuff like that when I was a kid, and then I would always destroy everything when I read it back kind of situation, and then I just—I hated looking at it so much that I just am, like, against writing. And whenever anybody brings it up in recovery, for example, I'm just like, "No."
Jessica: Yep. That makes sense.
Lucy: "I'm not doing that."
Jessica: So let me speak to that really briefly, okay?
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: Saturn is the fucking critic of the zodiac. Saturn governs editing, not creating.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: And Saturn squares all of your Venus-ruled placements except for your Moon. So your Sun, your Mercury, and your Venus are squared by Saturn. And what this means in practice is you create something, and the second you look at it, you're like, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: It's nothing but criticism.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: The thing about your—whether we want to call it wellness journey, your sobriety path—we can call it whatever the fuck you want—the thing about that path for you is it is requiring you to be able to tolerate that you are an imperfect person who sometimes makes mistakes. And it's not that you think you're perfect. It's that you're terrified of making mistakes because you fear it will reveal something that is terrible about you. And at core, you are a glorious weirdo.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: You're a unique, creative—I'm going to say a surprising person, which is really hard for you because you do not come from a background where that was fostered and encouraged.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: It was quite the opposite, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And your husband—his shit is not different enough from your shit. And so he's bending the knee in order to be told that he's a good boy.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And you have your own version of doing that. And so there's nobody in this relationship who's saying, "This is a corrosive dynamic to each of us as individuals, and it's having a heavy impact on our connection with each other," which I'm guessing it does.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: Yeah. I think, in that way, we are both way too—we can be very different on other things, but on that specific topic, we are way too similar.
Jessica: Way too similar. I mean—
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And the thing is—listen. He's being a terrible friend right now.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: He's being a terrible friend. And he's not being a terrible friend because he's a bad guy—I don't know. Maybe he's a bad guy. But this isn't evidence of him being a bad guy. This is evidence of him having issues with his mom that are unresolved and that right now he's choosing to not work on because Mommy's being nice. Right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So he's leaving you out to dry because he's getting something that when he was a kid he really wanted and he didn't get, and now he's fucking getting it. So he's like, "It's okay if you suffer because I'm getting something I need."
Lucy: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense.
Jessica: So it is your—I'm trying not to use such Capricorn language, but I can't help myself. I'm such a Capricorn. But I'm going to say this. It's your job to advocate for you. And you can do this in so many different ways. My advice is to write down, bullet-point note form—so this is not poetry, and this is not prose.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: It's bullet-point note form, okay?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: "What are all the things I want to say to husband? Why aren't you taking care of me? Why do you let her treat me like shit? Why do you act x, y, or z way around Karen?"—you know, all the things you want to say. And then you can sit with it 24 hours, 72 hours, something like that. If you want to do it longer, do it longer, but you don't have to do it instantly is what I'm trying to get at. And then come back to your bullet-point list and think about, "Okay. Well, what if what I wrote is me being defensive or angry?" and just to notice it, not to say, "And therefore, I won't say it." This is not about that.
It's about noticing your emotions. It's about tracking your thoughts because a big part of this situation is you having abandoned yourself. You're like, "I'll eat shit because I acted in shitty ways." Is this correct? Is that the thinking?
Lucy: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. I think that there's a part of me that still feels like I should be punished or have some sort of—
Jessica: Like a consequence.
Lucy: Yeah, a consequence. Yeah.
Jessica: Like you did something wrong, and now here's your consequence.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And do you think your husband should be the one who is perpetrating consequences upon you?
Lucy: No. I guess I probably do that enough to myself that it's—yeah. I'm not sure.
Jessica: Okay. So you are sure. The fun part about me being psychic is, man, I just watched you be perfectly clear about what you wanted to say—
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: —and then eat it. You just fucking ate it. You were just like, "No, I don't want to say it that way. No, I don't want to assert that. I'm not sure about this."
Lucy: Oh my gosh.
Jessica: You just edited the fuck out of yourself in real time.
Lucy: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. That's why you don't want to read anything you wrote, because you spend a lot of time in editing.
Lucy: Mm-hmm. I was afraid about this, actually, problem for this reading because I was like, "I'm afraid I'm going to do this to Jessica," because I know I'm like this, and I'm like, "What if I can't be myself? What if I can't show up for her and be who I am?" And I tried to express that to a couple people, and they're like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "I feel like I can't show up authentically and say what I actually mean or think," or I lose it in real time, like you said.
Jessica: So I'm so glad you shared that, because here's the thing. It's not a question of how you're showing up for me, because luckily, you're talking to a psychic. I can—I mean—you know.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: You can eat your words; I'm still hearing them. You know what I mean? It's all good.
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And it's good that it's coming up with me because then we can unpack it and we can talk about it, and I can help you with it, hopefully, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: The problem is that you're aware that when something is important to you, you overedit your own very existence, so you have a hard time being present yourself. The problem isn't that you're not present for me. The problem is that you're not present for you.
Lucy: Right. Okay.
Jessica: So this kind of—were you raised in religion?
Lucy: No. Both my parents are super atheist.
Jessica: But so structured, action/consequence, punishment/reward kind of people, yeah? Or is that just your mom?
Lucy: Yeah. No, it's my mom. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. There is a way that you have all this energy. You have all this energy, and you know you have a lot of energy. And whatever. Energy is just—what? It's energy. I don't fucking know. It doesn't mean any one thing. But okay. So you have all this energy, and then what happens is your energy starts to flow. And then, out of an abundance of caution—also self-harm, judgment, cruelty, all of the things, some of which are a lot more valid and helpful than others—you are like, "Rrr," and you pull back your energy, and you're scared that some of it's going to get away from you, so you shove it down.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So this has its own momentum. This action/reaction that you have to your own energy has a momentum, and that momentum is self-harm.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: That momentum is, "I have to disassociate from myself because being with myself is too much of a suckfest," basically.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And so, I mean, it's perfect for alcoholism. You know what I mean?
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: It's like this is perfect for alcoholism and for fucking up your life.
Lucy: Yeah,
Jessica: Yeah. Luckily, we're having this conversation at year five of sobriety and not at year two because that would be too soon, right?
Lucy: Yeah. I don't think I could have.
Jessica: I agree. I agree. I mean, this is a good time, and also, it's never a good time for you to have this conversation because it's awful. It's an awful conversation for you to have.
Lucy: Right. Yeah.
Jessica: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. But the momentum that you know how to maintain isn't working in your life. And actually, Karen is a perfect articulation of that because your old coping mechanism that you have used for making amends, even, is to condemn yourself, to push yourself down, to make yourself into pieces—
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: —instead of a whole. And when you do that around Karen, she's like, "Nom-nom-nom. That is my favorite sandwich."
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: "You're right. You're small. You're not a whole person. I'm going to treat you like that." And then you're like, "Bitch, what?" And instead of being like, "Fuck this shit. I'm going to have a fight with my partner about it. I'm going to have a fight with Karen about it. I'm going to talk about it with my sponsor in a way where they're like, 'You go girl'"—and then you find a thing to do—
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: —you're perpetuating the same fucking pattern of pushing the energy back, shoving it down.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So this relationship with Karen is actually kind of fucking beautiful because this situation—Karen is acting as an unconscious teacher. And the concept of the unconscious teacher is not like she's teaching you something and you should be like, "Oh, thank you, teacher."
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: She is playing an unconscious role in your own evolution. But this relationship is like an externalization of the relationship you have with yourself. You treat yourself like shit, and then you feel worse, and then you do worse, and then you punish yourself for not doing as well as you could have.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Karen is embodying a you that you do to you, which is why you are fucking mystified about how to engage with this person.
Lucy: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense.
Jessica: So I want to say a couple things. The first one is, in order to really deal with her and your marriage, you have to change. And changing us really, really hard.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So I want to just acknowledge that, right? Me giving you the advice to write things down—listen. Maybe that's not the right advice. I don't fucking know. But you have to change. You have to try something different.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And the only reason why is because if we imagine that energy creates energy—like if your car is moving, then it's not just your car moving. Also, the wind is moving past the car, and things are moving away from the car. And there's a lot of energy that happens in reaction to the motion of energy.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You have completely played out your approach to engaging with energy. It is played out, but you're still doing it. And you're still doing it because you haven't changed your pattern in how you talk to yourself. You haven't shifted your beliefs about action and consequence, taking up space. So, in order to have a conversation with Karen where you say, "I made major mistakes, and I've spent the last five years improving and atoning and living in reparation to the errors I have perpetrated. And you have gotten meaner to me over those years. What is going on?"
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: "Do you need to talk to me? Do you need to say something? Because I need you to change the way you treat me when you walk into my home."
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: In order to be able to say that, you would need to believe it.
Lucy: Yeah. Okay.
Jessica: I don't know that you believe it right now.
Lucy: You're right about that. And I think that I just appreciate the—because, again, with the black-and-whiteness of it, when I show up and make an amends to somebody, I do just want to own my part of it where it's like, "This is exactly what I did," not bring up any of the nuance of what happened because it's not about them. And that's like—because of the way that I perceive it—and I just get the black-and-white idea in my head that there's only one way, and I cannot start a new fight or cause more ruffled feathers and that I would basically just have to lay down or whatever ends up happening or try not to create new things that amends need to be made for. But because we haven't had any conversations about it at all, it makes sense that it would have to be a very open conversation with room for more than just the "I'm sorry for this" part.
Jessica: Yeah, especially because it's not like you stole $10 from her wallet and never paid it back; you're making an amends.
Lucy: Right. Yeah.
Jessica: That's not it at all. This is all gone through your husband.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: All of it.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And you and Karen and your husband are in this weird silent movie where no one is actually saying what they think. No one is taking accountability for what they're doing and how they're doing it. And you're just hoping that it gets better on its own, which objectively is not happening. Right?
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: I mean, in a way, Karen is winning. Karen is winning because she gets her son all to herself, and she doesn't really have to deal with you, and she gets to act like a fucking hero, and this is her favorite act. Right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Okay. That said, making a series of colossal mistakes in your life is terrible. I don't know if your mistakes were colossal. Let's imagine they're fucking tragic. I'm just going to hold space for you made 500 of the worst mistakes that a person could make, okay? I don't need to know the truth. I'm just going to hold space for that. You still deserve to be happy. You still deserve to learn from your mistakes and then not make them again. And you do deserve to forgive yourself. You don't get to control whether or not other people forgive you, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: That's healthy. But the impulse to not make any more mistakes and not ruffle any more feathers is literally the same impulse that compelled 15-year-old you to start drinking.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: That's like an unchanged psychology—
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: —which will put you in dry drunk territory, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: It'll put you in a position where, yes, you're not using, but you are harming yourself in very similar ways. And it's having that same result of you feeling like, "Oh, I can't even be in my own life."
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So we've got to talk about your fucking husband.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: I'm so sorry. I apologize to you deeply. Will you say your full name and then say his full name for me?
Lucy: Okay. [redacted].
Jessica: Does he listen to the podcast?
Lucy: He's shared in with me a couple of times. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. He really does not want to be read. He does not want to be read whatsoever.
Lucy: Yeah, I don't know that he loved it. Even though he didn't express this to me directly, he didn't seem to love it.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. That's fair. That's totally fair. You still love him?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And you like him?
Lucy: Yeah, I think more now. Yeah. At two years of sobriety, I actually was ready to kick him to the curb. But he's really trying.
Jessica: And he's a good co-parent?
Lucy: Yeah. Generally, yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Sure. No one's perfect. So the tricky thing about being with somebody for a long time, no matter what age you get together with them, is that you inevitably change and grow, but that doesn't mean they change and grow in the same ways, at the same pace, in the same direction.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And the first five years when you got with this person, you guys were in such a good, on-par-with-each other state. Does that check out?
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica: For the last few years, you have been really kind of stepping up and coming into yourself, and you've been hiding it in the relationship a little bit.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Are you just being aggregable, or does that make sense to you?
Lucy: A little bit.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Lucy: I feel like he's noticed and will make glorifying or sweeping kindnesses towards how I've impacted his ability to heal and grow in his own—just by being around me or keeping him around or something like that. So I feel like, through him, I'm actually having a better time seeing my growth in the last five years. I hate to say that.
Jessica: Why?
Lucy: I hate that that's so like classic me to—I don't know. I just feel like it's such a bad Libra thing to only be able to see myself through—
Jessica: I see. That part. Mm-hmm.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: This is going to sound so annoying, but part of that's—if you really want to change that, start writing. It's having thoughts for yourself.
Lucy: I think it's just the emotional part of the writing, too. Now that we're touching on it, it's just like whenever I've had to write stuff down—and I have, because I wrote down my inventory—
Jessica: Right.
Lucy: —or whatever, my stuff for my steps. And any time I have to sit down and write, it is because I'm finally feeling all this emotional stuff come up.
Jessica: Yep.
Lucy: And so maybe just even in small doses, I could start trying to put pen to paper because it would be a good practice of me just holding emotions and not trying to put it somewhere else.
Jessica: Mm-hmm, and tracking your own thoughts, your own lived experience, instead of tracking them through the anchor of another person. Right?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: This is where writing will really help you because it's really about anchoring yourself.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: And if you want, there's no shame in getting a lockbox. Get a tackle box. Put your journal in a tackle box and lock that shit. Do you know what I mean?
Lucy: Yeah. No, that's a good idea.
Jessica: Yeah. You don't have to press yourself to deal with your privacy issues while you're also pressing yourself to deal with getting to know yourself and accepting yourself at the same time. Pick a lane. You know what I mean? You don't have to deal with that. So lock it up. Don't even worry.
Lucy: Yeah. I love that you said that, because—
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: —the being perceived part of it is a big piece, I think.
Jessica: Of course. You've just written it down, and now it's in the world. So lock it up. You know what I mean?
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Lock it up. No one needs the key but you, or the combination or whatever. So there is an emotional maturity problem that husband has. He's a good guy, and he's considerate. And because he's a considerate, good guy, a lot of times, it's not obvious that he has kind of an emotional maturity issue.
Lucy: It's hard for me to—because of my infantile stages of emotional—I don't even know how to define emotional anything, it feels like, sometimes. So it's hard for me to speak to his, but I want to say yes.
Jessica: Oh, wait. So, if you're a fuck-up, then you can't possibly say that he's a fuck-up because you're the fuck-up first or you're the worst fuck-up; is this the logic?
Lucy: Well, I'm just not a good judge of it.
Jessica: You're not a good judge of emotional maturity because you struggle with your own emotional maturity?
Lucy: Right. Yeah, I guess.
Jessica: Okay. And I think language is really important, so if I'm not saying it in the right language, do tell me. But I do think it's good to say it out loud because—I don't know what I think of that statement, you can't judge emotional maturity because you struggle with it in yourself. That's interesting.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: I mean—
Lucy: I think that we're both different in the way that—but yes. I definitely have seen emotional immaturity in him, and I think it presents in different ways.
Jessica: Yeah. He's much more—
Lucy: And I think because I relate to his—and I feel his pain when he's expressing his struggles or whatever that he's going through when he is acting out that it's hard for me to be objective or something about it.
Jessica: Mm-hmm. There's this thing in your chart that speaks to how you can be a bit devotional in the way that you love. So there's a part of you that feels that being critical of someone you care about or someone you need is equal to being mean to them—
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: —which I want to say is not true. It's just like, is it patriotic to treat the president like a king, or is it patriotic to criticize the president? I mean, I would say it's the second. I'm assuming you would say it's the second.
Lucy: Yeah. No, that's a good example.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it works with your partner. It's like being critical of your partner is just a part of being present.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And again, your habit is to push yourself down, and that keeps you from being present because being present is scary and vulnerable.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So all of this to say I don't like shoulds. I'm not a huge fan of shoulds, but your husband should say to his mother, "Why do you treat my wife poorly? I need you to be nice to my wife, especially when you're in my fucking house with my wife." He doesn't have to say it that way. Nobody should speak that way to their mother, but you understand what I'm saying.
Lucy: Right. Yeah.
Jessica: He should have said that years ago, not weeks ago, not months ago, not last year. The man should have said that years ago.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Do you believe that?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay.
Lucy: Yeah. I have wondered because when he's brought up the way that she speaks about me and then she points to all the things I'm not doing or whatever and fucking up on, he will just take ownership of it as a couple. He'll be like, "We're both bad at these things. We both don't do that," or whatever. You know?
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: And I'm just not sure how much truth there is to how often these conversations occur, how often he shuts her down or steps away or how—like what kind of [crosstalk].
Jessica: So let me interject there. He never shuts her down. The man never shuts her down. He's a ten-year-old boy around his mom.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: He tries to soften the blow of impact. That's what he does. So he either is like, "Look over there. A bird," or he's like, "Oh, look. I'm a nice person." That's all he does.
Lucy: Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Jessica: Those are his two moves. Okay?
Lucy: That's kind of what I figure with the way that—
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: I'm like, otherwise, surely this wouldn't continue.
Jessica: Surely this wouldn't continue, or more accurately, surely he would come to you and be like, "You wouldn't believe the conversation I had with my mom. She said something mean, and I stepped up, and I said, 'You can't do that to my wife.'" But he's never told you he did that because he doesn't do it.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: If he did it, he'd be bragging.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. So the reason why he's not doing it is not because he doesn't love you and he doesn't care about you. That's not it at all. It's because he hasn't become the kind of adult who has an adult relationship with his parent—
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: —which I'm characterizing as emotionally immature, just for the record.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: Okay? Just for the record.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: That's what I'm calling emotionally immature.
Lucy: Yeah. That makes sense.
Jessica: And you all are young, early 30s, right?
Lucy: Yeah. I'm 34, and he's 39.
Jessica: The man is 39 human years old?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Oh no. Oh no. I assumed he was younger than you this whole time. He's 39?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Interesting. Here's what worries me for you.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: I mean, I could very happily give you a script of what you should say to your beloved husband, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: I fear for you that you will not advocate for you.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And I fear that you will not advocate for yourself because it' not something you have practice in. You're scared of what will happen "if I advocate for myself and I do it wrong" or "if I hurt the person's feelings" or—worse—"What will happen if I advocate for myself and then he doesn't take care of me in the way I've told him I need him to take care of me? Then I have to deal with that."
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And the truth is he's not working on this. He's not working on this.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And so my greatest hope for you is that you and your husband go to couples counseling.
Lucy: Oh no.
Jessica: I know. I know. I'm a tragedy wrapped in a riddle of annoyingness. I apologize. That is my greatest hope for you—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —because the two of you are not being honest with each other. He does not understand—let me reframe. I was going to say he didn't understand how much this upsets. Yeah, he fucking does. And also, you haven't told him. So I can intuitively know that my partner is upset with something, but until he fucking tells me, I don't need to truly deal with it, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: I do not think you have shared with your partner how much it upsets you and how he's the only person who can truly help because you can have a conversation with her, but if he's—and you should, honestly.
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Maybe not this month, but you should.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: But if he's not actively advocating for you, she's not going to change. If she secretly talks shit—
Lucy: Right. Yeah.
Jessica: —and he just lets it go, why would she change? Why would she change? Because he hasn't said that it's not okay, and he needs to say that it's not okay for—the sole reason is that it's not okay.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And listen. If, underneath it all, he is secretly mad at you still or hasn't let go or whatever, the two of you need to talk about it.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: I think that's possible that that's some of it. It's like 20 percent if it's anything.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: The real problem is he doesn't know how to have an adult relationship with his mom.
Lucy: Yeah. I think that's more of the issue at this point.
Jessica: Yes.
Lucy: And I didn't even think about—or maybe I unconsciously knew if I had a conversation with his mom that probably all this stuff could come up again because of the way that their relationship operates. So this could just be an issue again in the future.
Jessica: Absolutely. So this is my belief. And everybody's got different beliefs about marriage and all that kind of shit, and for me, when I say marriage, I mean the two of you are actually married, right? He's your husband?
Lucy: No.
Jessica: Okay. So—but marriage [crosstalk].
Lucy: We operate like we're married.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're partners, and you have kids, and yada yada.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: The thing about marriage, as far as I'm concerned, is that when you bring a stranger and turn them into your family—which the two of you have done, right? You've chosen each other. You've been like, "We are each other's family now."
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: You're exposing them to your family of origin, and you have to be their protector from your family of origin just as much as your partner is meant to be your support around their family of origin. Right? It goes both ways. It goes both ways.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: But I am of the firm belief that if my parent or my family member does something unkind to my partner, that I am the ambassador in this situation, and it is my fucking job to say to that family member, "You can't actually talk to that person that way. You want to talk to me that way; that's one thing. But you cannot talk to that person that way." And if I see a pattern of behavior, it is my responsibility to shield my partner, who's my chosen family, from a pattern of unkind or abusive behavior from my family of origin. That's my belief.
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You agree with that?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Then you all need to change your relationship more than a little bit—
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: —because it's not—your relationship isn't functioning that way. Right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So neither of you are going to go to couples counseling, but you can't have a real conversation. Have you ever heard of couples mediation?
Lucy: No.
Jessica: So couples mediation—there's different contexts that people will—sometimes if they're getting a divorce, they'll meet with a mediator instead of a lawyer. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is there are mediators, couples mediators, that you can meet with one. You can set up a meeting and be like, "This is not couples therapy," because couples therapy, you go every week. Right? This is like you spend four hours in a room or two hours in a room with a mediator who's just there to facilitate a conversation.
So, if one person starts to—I don't know—just as a crazy example, shut down and eat their words—I'm pointing at you. You know that I'm pointing at you. Okay. Then the mediator might be like, "Wait. What were you actually trying to say here?" They would help mediate and facilitate a back-and-forth conversation where both people are heard.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: I don't really see you guys doing that either, but I think you should, so I'm just going to put it in the mix. It's something for you to play with. You can bring it to your partner, and he can be like, "No," or, "Yes," or you can make fun of what a terrible idea it is. Doesn't matter. But I would bring it up, okay—
Lucy: Yeah. Okay.
Jessica: —because the two of you aren't taking the kind of care of this relationship that it deserves in this context. And he knows about this issue for you, right, whether or not to make amends with his mom?
Lucy: Yeah. And I mean, he's gone back and forth on that, too. I think part of that is the problem, is just that I don't know where he actually stands or what he actually believes because it'll change.
Jessica: Because he doesn't have boundaries with his mom.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: If you have a boundary with his mom, you're going to change his relationship with his mom.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: So, on particular days where he's got big courage or he's annoyed by his mom, then he's like, "You should make amends." And then, every other day, he's like, "Don't rock the boat."
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: "It's not that bad." Subtext of that is, "It's not that bad for me."
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You need him to be your partner.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And even if you are completely wrong and you on some level deserve your mother-in-law's treatment, you still need him to have your back and be your partner.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So, currently, Pluto is sitting on top of your North Node. This is a once-in-a-lifetime event. Doesn't happen to everyone in a lifetime, but it's happening to you. And what this means is, over the next two years, you will either really step into yourself or you won't.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: When I say step into yourself, I mean develop a relationship with your inner world, and I mean embrace that you are yourself. You are really different than the people around you in a lot of ways. The way you see things is not always the way other people see things. You're different. You've got this North Node in the twelfth house in Aquarius. And you, in a meaningful way, have come into this life to embrace from the inside the uniqueness of who and what you are. And you're actively working against that at this moment, my friend. You have made great progress.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: You're moving in the right direction, for sure, dramatically. Like we said at the start of the conversation, two, three years ago, you couldn't have had this conversation.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: This is really huge. But make no mistake that while we're talking about Karen and we're talking about husband, who's not really husband—it doesn't matter. Okay. When we're talking about these people, we're not talking about other people. We're talking about how you choose to participate, what you believe about yourself, right?
Lucy: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And I do think this man really loves you. I do think he's a really lovely human in many ways. I really do. And this thing with his mom—I genuinely thought he was younger than you. This is way—I mean, I know there are stereotypes about men and their moms, but this is too on the nose with those stereotypes.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: This is a problem.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: It's a problem that he has with himself. And so, if him getting approval and love from his mother is dependent on him ignoring active cruelty directed at him, at you, at your kids, at strangers, then it's not really love, is it?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: I want to validate that you have a right to ask him to choose you. That's not asking him to not choose her. She's the one who's setting that up.
Lucy: Yeah. I think that I felt like I would be too much participating in that dynamic, and I was trying not to be like her by forcing his hand.
Jessica: Yeah. The problem with that is that coping mechanism is what got you to drink and drink in a terrible way.
Lucy: Yeah. It's like my pattern.
Jessica: Yeah. It's your pattern.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: So it's not that that's bad logic. That's good logic. It's just not the right logic for this situation or for you.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: And I think you can say to him, "I have been evasive because I'm evasive. I've also been evasive because I don't want to be like her in this way that I think is really unhealthy. And I'm not telling you what to do. I'm asking you to choose me. If you don't forgive me, I'm asking you to tell me that you don't forgive me." Asking people to be direct, and you yourself being direct—the only thing it changes is it's like turning up the volume on a movie. The characters are already speaking, you know?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You just get more information. It's not different information, to be honest with you. So the truth is just taking in the totality of information. It doesn't change your problems if your problem is that your husband doesn't forgive you, which again, I don't really think is the problem, I don't think you really think is the problem. But your pattern, that compulsion inside of you, is certain that that's the problem. And if that is the problem, then you might as well find out now because how many years are you going to spend in this dynamic if that's the case?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: The only way for you to work through him not forgiving you, if that's the case, is for you to know. Now, I think the bulk of the problem—I think there's some of that. There's a little bit of that. But most of the problem is it's like, when he's with her, he's ten years old, he's parked in front of the TV, and she's bringing him food.
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: And it's like asking him to choose you is in effect asking him to work through really deep issues that he has with his mom and with himself.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Therefore, he will be bad at it even if he says yes—just a heads-up—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —which is why your Jessica/astrologer thinks that you could use a therapist/mediator—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —because I don't think either of you are going to be great at this conversation. Is he going to listen to this reading?
Lucy: I don't know.
Jessica: Are you going to offer for him to listen to this reading? Does he know you're getting the reading?
Lucy: He knows that I'm getting the reading, and because he knows that he'll be a part of it, I'm not sure if his curiosity would get the better of him, but I know he does avoid things that make him feel bad.
Jessica: Oh, shit. Well, he don't want to hear the reading. Okay.
Lucy: Yeah, he might not want to.
Jessica: Okay. So is it realistic for the two of you to listen to it together and then pause it and talk about it when things come up? Is that realistic about who the two of you are?
Lucy: Could we? Yeah.
Jessica: Would you? Not could you. Would you?
Lucy: I don't know that—I would actually be more apprehensive to do that, I think, just because then I would have to watch him take it in in real time, because you don't—you aren't going to sugar coat—or you haven't—
Jessica: No, I haven't.
Lucy: —what I—how I might have said it.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Lucy: So it would be—you know. But he actually does appreciate that directness, and he responds really well to directness. He purposely chooses to have other people in his life who are very direct with him. I don't know if that answers that question.
Jessica: Oh, it answers it. It answers it. So I would say a couple things. The first is, if he does listen to it, I imagine that some of what I'm saying will make him feel very defensive and very agitated, and he will also understand that I'm speaking to something that's very real for him.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: The way that he functions—you have your own version of this—is he could then be like, "Oh, this fucking Jessica," and then he just—every time he thinks about the problem, he thinks about fucking Jessica and the way that Jessica said it. He can focus on one person and the way one person said something or did something and just be defensive—
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: —and justify not dealing. Right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: And you have your own version of this. You do something very similar. It's different, but it's similar. And so that would be the reason to not do this with him. But if you're not going to go to therapy, if the two of you choose to use it this way, you could say to him, "She's so fucking annoying. She's direct. She might not be right about everything. But we could listen to it and pause it and just make a pact that we're going to be honest with each other about what it feels like to hear it and then have a follow-up conversation in five days where we talk about, "How has it sat? What do we think? What do we want to make fun of Jessica about? What do we want to say, "We don't agree with this"? Maybe there's moments of truth, but we're not going to focus on it. And maybe we want to be like, "Okay. Let's move forward with this," or, "Let's talk about this." I'm just going to give this to you as an option—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —of a way you can use this resource of this reading because, over the years, I've done a lot of readings for people about their partners, as you could imagine.
Lucy: Yes.
Jessica: And a lot of people never share it with their partners, but a lot of people do. And it's like a whole other reading when you share it with your partner. Now, of course, I'm giving you a reading. If he was here, I would be much more diplomatic—that's a lie. I would just talk differently about the situation. It would be less focused on you, right?
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: But I really think the guy wants to be with you. And I do think that if he absolutely understood—which I reiterate he does not, and that's on you. But I think if he truly understood the nuances of the situation and how it affects you and how he's participating, he might not know what to do. He might do a terrible job. But he would try.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And he is not trying. For the last five years, this bitch has not been trying.
Lucy: Yeah. I think it's like—well, it's not a similar dynamic to, but it's like if I could get away with a little bit in my addiction, or what are ways that I can push him or push his boundaries on certain things—I think because he knows that I'm not going to act out or retaliate against him for what ends up happening with his mom, it's like that he doesn't have to do anything about it right now. There's no pressing—
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: So he's not trying to rock the boat.
Jessica: Yeah. Here's the risk for both of you. And I think you need to hear this, and honestly, I think he needs to hear this. But you are in charge of whether or not he does get to hear it—
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: —outside of the fact that it'll be in public, and I guess he could do whatever the fuck he wants.
Lucy: He could find it.
Jessica: Yeah, he could find it—is that that's true. You could keep on eating shit because you were shitty. And he could keep on going—being entitled and being like, "Well, I know she's not going to demand anything here," and, "I know it's technically wrong, but whatever." Eventually, either you will regress—doesn't mean you'll stop being sober, but you will regress because you're making progress right now.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: But if you keep on doing the old thing, it has its own momentum, and it pulls you back. That's just why people in their 40s get stuck in a way that people in their 30s and their 20s aren't. Now, people may be just as fucked up in every generation, but in your 40s, there's a momentum that starts to drag you backwards if you're not actively moving forwards. Right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So there is that. The other thing is you will resent this man that you trust and love. You already do a little bit now. I know you're not saying it.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. So let this go on for another three years; you will resent him, and then he can do the right thing, and it might not be e-fucking-enough. And this is part of your pattern. You let things go until they're unfixable, and then you're like, "Ahh, they're unfixable," and it's devastating for you. Right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You've seen this in other relationships with other people, friends, partners, whatever, yeah?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: I'm assuming he has a similar problem himself where he lets things get to a place where they're unfixable with people.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Again, this is the way that you're similar, and it's not a great thing to have in common because neither of you are going to be the one to change because it's not like one of you is like, "I know how to be direct," and the other one is like, "Oh. Okay. I can kind of learn from the way you do it." You have that in other ways, just not in this way.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So all to say you can wait, but it's going to cost you a lot more if you wait than if you go through the discomfort now.
Lucy: Yeah. That makes sense.
Jessica: This will feel bad at best. At best, this will be awkward, uncomfortable, scary. You will say things wrong. You will do things wrong. He will say things wrong. He will do things wrong—at best. So, if you're going to set a series of goals for yourself, goal towards that thing that you kind of think of as a worst-case scenario as actually your best-case scenario. That Saturnian dynamic in your chart has you feel like, "If I say it just right with the right tone of voice, if I use the right words, if I deliver it correctly, then it will go well," quote unquote.
Lucy: Yes. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. That's not true. That's not how complicated, nuanced emotional blockages in a long-term partnership work. If you are asking someone to confront something that they don't know how to confront and you do it perfectly—you say it right. You use the right tone of voice. You use the right language. You're just gentle and just clear enough. They will still have an unconscious response. They will still feel like they're being attacked or like they're being hurt or something because we all are dealing with our traumas, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So, in a way, asking him to choose you is so obvious. That's why his sponsor is naming it. That's why I saw it instantly in this reading, right? It's obvious. But because of his shit, he's going to in part feel like you're asking him to not get love from his mom. You're asking him to take a stand with a person he's never really taken a stand with other than when he was like, "I'm running away and taking a stand all at once."
Lucy: Yeah, when he was a teenager. Right.
Jessica: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I see that that was his only move with his mom.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: Run and stand or stand and run.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So he doesn't want to do that now. That's not what he wants, but he doesn't know how to do anything else. And so, when I say your best-case scenario is going to be conflictual and uncomfortable and emotional and awkward, and no matter how perfectly say it, you're not going to say it right, and no matter how perfectly he says his part, he's not going to say it right, that's just to validate that you don't need to be perfect here. You only need to be honest.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: So here's the thing about having a Libra stellium, especially in the seventh house, especially intercepted. You're like a Libra's Libra Libra Libra Libra. You're so Libra that you could be a poster child for Libra. We could put your face on Wikipedia on the Libra page. Okay. So the thing about being so Libra is that you run the risk of prioritizing being accommodating over being authentic. And you're doing that in your marriage in a very serious way. You're being accommodating. You're even being accommodating to Karen. You're just accommodating her meanness. You're accommodating her increasing cruelty. What? And you're doing it because if you were being authentic, you're scared of what would change. You're scared of what it would cost you.
And if somebody hurts your feelings in any way and you're being inauthentic, your inner child, the little part of you that runs the show, is like, "Well, if somebody's mean to me and I'm not being authentic, then it doesn't hurt as much as if I'm being authentic and they're mean to me." And so, whenever there's this much Libra in a chart, the core lesson is always, can you choose authenticity? And being sober is a fucking journey in that regard, right? It's like you're actually feeling your feelings and you're not medicating them away.
Lucy: Yeah. Right.
Jessica: Coming to a point in this marriage where you can have a conversation with him and notice the various ways that the impulse to be accommodating and to be diplomatic come up and to say, "Okay. Those things are important, but in this conversation, I'm just going to be authentic. I'm going to be authentic and kind. I'm going to be authentic and kind. I'm going to be authentic and kind," not, "I'm going to be accommodating and just say less. I'm going to be accommodating, and I'm going to soften the edges of this."
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: If you're authentic with your husband/partner/person, it will be hard for both of you because neither of you are used to it. And it can be a turning point in your relationship where things go up. A lot of people reach out to me when they're going through terrible transits. You're not. You are coming out of some terrible transits. I’m sure there will be some coming for you soon enough. Don't worry. Life is terrible.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: However, Pluto is trining your Moon. This is a period of your life, and it's a powerful one, where you can transform your emotional patterns. You can come to a state of healing as you release old beliefs and old ways of being with people that you're close to, with family, with yourself, with loved ones. This is why you for some reason wrote this question to me and I chose it, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: This is why it came to pass, because you're ready for this.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: And even the most beautiful, supportive transit like Pluto trine the Moon—when it comes with Pluto, it's always fucking messy, and it's always like, "Rrr," in your guts, you know?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So I want to just acknowledge it's messy, and it's intense. And also, this is the best time to do this work.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: You can wait. It doesn't get easier a year from now if you do it then.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: So it's not like one of those things where it's like, "Stick with your sobriety a little longer and see how that goes."
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: You know what I mean? I would have said that to you if you had reached out to me a year ago. But now you actually have the support to have a conversation with your partner, to play it out. Now, I'm not saying you have to get off the phone; do it now.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: And in fact, what I would recommend, in the spirit of direct communication and authenticity—when he comes home, when you see him, whatever, be like, "Hey. I had my reading today. Are you interested in it?" and see what he says.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: And if he says, "Yeah. What did she say?" you can say, "Do you want to hear it? Because we talked about you and our relationship." And he can say whatever the fuck he says. You can share your feelings about it. You can share your thoughts about it. You don't have to share anything. But I would encourage, I mean, just that much of a direct conversation.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Would you do that? Is that realistic?
Lucy: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. He'll for sure ask me.
Jessica: He'll ask you how it went?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: But will he ask you how it went in a "How was your day, honey?" kind of way or in a "I actually want to know what the fuck happened in this reading" kind of way?
Lucy: I think more in the former.
Jessica: Mm-hmm, the "How was your day?" kind of way.
Lucy: I think if I started to really go into it, he might start to shut down, if I had to guess.
Jessica: So I want to encourage you to tell him that I told you to have this conversation, to just have an honest conversation about whether or not it would be good for your relationship to listen to it together and discuss it.
Lucy: Yeah. Okay.
Jessica: And he can say, "I'm not ready for that," and you can say, "All right. If you ever are ready for it, I have the recording. And if you're not ready for it ever, you don't have to listen to it. It's okay"—you know, either way.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: But this is a practice in you being direct—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —and you giving him a choice and requiring his consent. These are three separate things.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: Be direct. Give him a choice. He has to consent because part of what's happening in your relationship is you're not giving him a choice; he's not giving you a choice in this dynamic.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Neither of you are clearly saying fucking anything. And nobody is consenting, but nobody is saying no. This little thing of, like, "Hey, do you want to hear about the reading? Really, do you really want to hear about the reading, or do you just want to hear about how I feel about the reading?" because—again, give him a choice. That's already starting to break the pattern a little bit.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: And the thing that's really interesting about relationships is that when you are different, like authentically different, even if it's in a teeny, tiny way, when you're different with somebody, it leaves room and creates an energy momentum for them to be different. And if you're waiting for them to be different so that you can be different, you're pulling back and smooshing down. You've got this momentum that you've been living off of your whole life, and it's just not serving you.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You could be so much happier, like a lot happier. I don't know how happy you identify as. You got a lot of square from Saturn, so happy may not be your first descriptive of yourself.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: You could be a lot happier, and it would simply require you prioritizing being more authentic and having faith that now that you're not using—right? Because I see you shoved things in people's faces before, and now you don't at all.
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: Now you don't at all. And so figuring out, okay, so drunk you—or whatever—loaded you was really direct, but not in an authentic way—in a defensive way.
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: But there is a way to be authentic and direct in your way, right? You're not going to be a fucking—you know, somebody like me who just—I have to learn how to be less direct. You're going to always have a million planets in Libra, so you're always going to be a little diplomatic with the truth.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: But you being authentic is 100 percent possible. It's written all over your chart. You just have to give yourself the room to sometimes do it wrong—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —and to feel uncomfortable with it.
Lucy: I think I'm getting there. And I, to your point, sensed that it was time and that I'm in a position now that I think it's possible.
Jessica: It is.
Lucy: And there's room for me to do it. And it'll be scary, and I probably will—I don't know. You mentioned the gut, which is where I always feel all of that, like getting punched in the gut. And that's where it centers. And even before this reading, I was like, "I feel sick." But I do feel that sense of readiness, at least to be able to have the conversation with him, to be able to hopefully in the near future be able to have a conversation with his mom.
Jessica: I think—you know, the more we've talked about it, I just want to hold space for—the conversations with him are much more important, and they're first. And so, if the conversations with him—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —because here's the thing. If he hears you, then he could simply say to her, "Hey, even if you don't like her, you have to act like you like her when you're with her. You have to be nice because we're family. Otherwise, I can't have you in the house because it's her house." That's his job. As an adult man, it's his job. Right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: As a partner, it's his job. And trust that's going to stay in the podcast, okay? So he'll have a chance to hear me fucking say that. So, if you had a partner who was advocating for you, who was setting boundaries, and kind of saying to the perpetrator of this harm in your life, "This is—it's uncool. You can't keep on doing this. This is not okay"—because he's the one inviting her in, right?
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You're not offering her invitations. He is.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: So, if he has that conversation with her, that completely changes the context of you making amends. If he was advocating for you, your feelings of defensiveness wouldn't be as strong because he would be defending you—
Lucy: Right.
Jessica: —not against the harm you perpetrated when you were using, but against the nonexistent harm that you've perpetrated of continuing to exist.
Lucy: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: One last thing I want to just say is don't forget the part where I pointed out how she's like the embodiment of this voice in your head that's like, "I must deal with consequences for having made mistakes in the past," right—
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: —and to remember that she's an unconscious teacher.
Lucy: Yes.
Jessica: And what she's teaching you is how to accept yourself, advocate for yourself, and be direct. She's helping to each you to choose yourself. Now, again, we don't give her any credit. But if you're going to fucking suffer, you might as well get some value out of it, right?
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: So there's a lot of suffering in this dynamic. At least there's some value you can get out of it, too.
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah. I think the teacher perspective, even if it's not the teacher I want or the teacher I asked for—but using that is like a way to propel me forward.
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: Will be useful.
Jessica: So did we hit the major points? Do you have any kind of lingering question, or did we hit it?
Lucy: No, I think—yeah, we covered all of the bases.
Jessica: Okay. Good.
Lucy: I feel like every part of it has been touched in a way that it feels manageable.
Jessica: Yay.
Lucy: And I know what to do. The practicality of this is what I was most interested in because I get lost in all of these ideas and thoughts and nuances and stuff, and it's like I really just need something—I needed the grounding—
Jessica: Yeah.
Lucy: —and the practical approaches. So thank you so much.
Jessica: Good. Oh, it's my pleasure. And if you do get a journal, writing out all of the thoughts, all of the needs—again, not poetry, not prose, but bullet-point note form because Saturn loves that. So bullet-point note—it's also less vulnerable, so it might be easier for you to sustain—will help you to organize, "Okay, what is the next step?" Part of why you get lost in your thoughts is because you're not organizing them. But it's actually in your nature to organize them. You're actually really good at organizing things, certain things. Correct?
Lucy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. So that might be, again, something that helps. And again, you fuck with it; if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Don't worry about it. But something to play with. I guess I'll share this one last thing before we go, which is simply this. When I see I'm going through a transit that requires me to change, even a transit where I'm like, "No. That's a terrible transit. I don't want to go through this," what I generally try to do is actively try to change something that's not triggering.
In other words, you may want to—I don't know—repaint the bathroom because Pluto governs the bathroom. You may want to let go of some clothes that you've outgrown. This is a good time to make some change that's not that deep because it will help you to create the energetic momentum for creating deeper change.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jessica: I worked with this woman, Yacine Bell, a number of years ago, and she said when you're trying to make a really deep change in your life, move 27 items in your house. Just pick up 27 items. So the last time I did it, I moved 27 gemstones, like crystals, because I have a million of them. And I just picked them up, dusted them off, and moved them to a different part of the shelf or whatever. You don't have to redo your house, but there's something really powerful in touching your stuff and acknowledging it and moving it. Again, it creates this energetic momentum that can be really helpful for this kind of shit.
Lucy: Okay.
Jessica: So I know it sounds off topic, but it really is on topic.
Lucy: No, I love that.
Jessica: Okay. Great. Woo. Okay. Great. We did it.
Lucy: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Jessica: Yes.
Lucy: Thank you so much, Jessica.
Jessica: Oh my God. It's so my pleasure. I wish you the best of luck, and congratulations. Five years of sobriety is a big fucking deal, and sticking with the program is really—I think it can be really hard and so powerful.
Lucy: Thanks.
Jessica: My pleasure.